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<blockquote data-quote="bert1001 fka bert1000" data-source="post: 8756850" data-attributes="member: 7029588">Great post that captures a lot of ways people want the Fighter &quot;improved&quot; and why this is always a difficult message board conversation without agreeing on the goals and sticking to that box.That said, I would ask you not to characterize anything that involves a limited effect or narrative effect as a &quot;spell&quot;.There is no fundamental reason spells are mechnically modeled this&nbsp; way and there is no reason something modeled similarly is automatically a &quot;spell&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; Since the rest of your post was quite neutral not sure you meant to outline this one point of view.Here's both sides on this:&quot;Some people think any limited, reliable narrative power is a spell and thus disqualify those powers from martials, and others think you can model martial powers just fine under this mechanical framework without it being a spell (both at the mundane and mythical level)&quot;I think the limited, reliable narrative powers are seperate from the mythic martial capabilities.You can have someone who is fine with narrative abilites, like -- &quot;if you hit your target you push it back 5 feet&quot; -- and can explain the 5 foot movement in various ways even if not &quot;physics related&quot; -- you are not actually pushing the dragon but you annoy it enough to move back or whatever.&nbsp; All mundane.That same person might not be ok with, even at 20th level, &quot;after you attack you can jump up to 500ft to any destination, smashing through any barriers mundane or magical in your way.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; This gets into &quot;mythic martial&quot; territory and they don't want that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bert1001 fka bert1000, post: 8756850, member: 7029588"] Great post that captures a lot of ways people want the Fighter "improved" and why this is always a difficult message board conversation without agreeing on the goals and sticking to that box. That said, I would ask you not to characterize anything that involves a limited effect or narrative effect as a "spell". There is no fundamental reason spells are mechnically modeled this way and there is no reason something modeled similarly is automatically a "spell". Since the rest of your post was quite neutral not sure you meant to outline this one point of view. Here's both sides on this: "Some people think any limited, reliable narrative power is a spell and thus disqualify those powers from martials, and others think you can model martial powers just fine under this mechanical framework without it being a spell (both at the mundane and mythical level)" I think the limited, reliable narrative powers are seperate from the mythic martial capabilities. You can have someone who is fine with narrative abilites, like -- "if you hit your target you push it back 5 feet" -- and can explain the 5 foot movement in various ways even if not "physics related" -- you are not actually pushing the dragon but you annoy it enough to move back or whatever. All mundane. That same person might not be ok with, even at 20th level, "after you attack you can jump up to 500ft to any destination, smashing through any barriers mundane or magical in your way." This gets into "mythic martial" territory and they don't want that. [/QUOTE]

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