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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8757794" data-attributes="member: 4937">Agreed.&nbsp; One of the biggest reasons I'm approaching the topic as I am is because there is a whole group of people out there that will immediately start wagging their jaws about how &quot;You just don't want martials to have good stuff!&quot; or similar arguments based on assumptions and past grievances.&nbsp; I shouldn't have to, because it is pretty clear to everyone - including you as you just demonstrated - what I mean by - &quot;Some mechanical approaches to the problem of balancing spell-casters and martials is to simply give the non-spellcasters their own spells.&quot;&nbsp; The only people who have a problem with that description are deliberately being obtuse so that they can &quot;score a point&quot; rather than have any sort of legitimate discussion.So yes, technically, often when I say &quot;spells&quot; I am using this as a short-hand for &quot;spell-like mechanics&quot; but out here in the meta where we are discussing mechanics that isn't much of a distinction.&nbsp; And in the extreme cases, it becomes increasingly disconnected from rational debate to not consider the spell-like mechanic to be de facto a spell.&nbsp; For example, if your solution is the fighter spends 20 minutes in the morning preparing maneuvers, and he has maneuver slots one of which he fills with his once daily 5th level maneuver &quot;Richochet Weapon&quot; that does automatic weapon damage to all foes in in a 50' burst, I don't think it's inappropriate in that context to just agree that's a spell not just at the mechanical level but very likely within the context of the fiction as well.&nbsp; Sure, it's not the same sort of spell or magic as performed by an academic wizard, but it's surely some sort of martial magic.&nbsp; And if that's the aesthetic you are going for, own it and love it with pride.&nbsp; For some games and settings, that may well be perfect. The only people who are confused are people who have a vested emotional interest in pretending to be confused by this for whatever reason.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8757794, member: 4937"] Agreed. One of the biggest reasons I'm approaching the topic as I am is because there is a whole group of people out there that will immediately start wagging their jaws about how "You just don't want martials to have good stuff!" or similar arguments based on assumptions and past grievances. I shouldn't have to, because it is pretty clear to everyone - including you as you just demonstrated - what I mean by - "Some mechanical approaches to the problem of balancing spell-casters and martials is to simply give the non-spellcasters their own spells." The only people who have a problem with that description are deliberately being obtuse so that they can "score a point" rather than have any sort of legitimate discussion. So yes, technically, often when I say "spells" I am using this as a short-hand for "spell-like mechanics" but out here in the meta where we are discussing mechanics that isn't much of a distinction. And in the extreme cases, it becomes increasingly disconnected from rational debate to not consider the spell-like mechanic to be de facto a spell. For example, if your solution is the fighter spends 20 minutes in the morning preparing maneuvers, and he has maneuver slots one of which he fills with his once daily 5th level maneuver "Richochet Weapon" that does automatic weapon damage to all foes in in a 50' burst, I don't think it's inappropriate in that context to just agree that's a spell not just at the mechanical level but very likely within the context of the fiction as well. Sure, it's not the same sort of spell or magic as performed by an academic wizard, but it's surely some sort of martial magic. And if that's the aesthetic you are going for, own it and love it with pride. For some games and settings, that may well be perfect. The only people who are confused are people who have a vested emotional interest in pretending to be confused by this for whatever reason. [/QUOTE]

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