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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8761779" data-attributes="member: 4937">That doesn't really matter.  I'm not interested in an edition fight.  For the purposes of this discussion, we are talking about some hypothetical "fix" to the fighter and what mechanics we might adopt for it.   So we are talking not only about what 3rd parties have done in the past as unofficial fixes to various editions including 5e, but also alternative rule sets like Bo9S for past editions, or even some hypothetical set of rules we agreed on in this thread.  I just gave you an Aristotelian definition up above.   It was probably me that said it and you are completely misunderstanding what I said.  We're not talking about "any power" we are talking about powers that interact with the fiction without contesting that fiction.  For example, a normal attack with a weapon contests the fiction by attempting to hit some target that depends on the defense of the target.  But if you had a 1/day power that allowed you to attack and never miss no matter what you were attacking, that would probably be balanced at the game level but it wouldn't be justifiable from the fiction except by some definition that amounted to "magic".Potentially, yes.  In fact I already noted "Rage" was a very spell-like ability, useable a number of times per day with an effect that seems to go well beyond what is possible with mundane anger.  Why can't everyone get more powerful by getting angry unless there is some esoteric thing going on.  In fact, in some systems there have been spells that mimicked or partially mimicked the effects of the Rage ability.  Action surges represent a more problematic gray area, in that it's possible to think of them as being the equivalent to having 1 1/2 actions or 2 1/3 actions in that they could represent mechanically the ability to just be a little bit faster than normal but not quite fast enough that you can take an extra whole action every round.  This may or may not be supernatural, but either way it's probably not a spell if you are just a little bit faster all around and this is our way of coping with the abstraction of turn based combat.  For example, this could be the modern equivalent of the fighter getting 5/4 attacks per round, which is surely not a spell.Most of those are obviously tied to the character being in the fiction being slightly faster, stronger, or more skilled in particular weapon skills.  I grant sneak attack is a bit problematic, to the point that I've thought about getting rid of it, not so much in that it's implausible that you could get really good at gutting people by surprise, but that it's silo'd out in to an ability not accessible to a master of weapons.  But in any event, even if it is hard to associate well, it's an at will ability that doesn't otherwise act like a spell.  You don't forget about how to do it.  It's very much a different ability than "cause flames to appear around your sword".  You aren't doing anything but just "hitting someone really well" so there isn't really an element here that feels supernatural, especially since how well you hit them is contested both by the hit roll and the existence of hit points in the first place.Despite the fact that I agree with you this feels like the sort of assertion about the real world that doesn't really feel like it belongs at EnWorld.  I don't want to get in an argument with a Voodoo practitioner or a neo-Wiccan over whether magic is real in real life.   I don't think it is relevant to discussing a game.  What is relevant to the game is that powers like 'Rage' are inspired by powers and stories in the real world created by people who did believe magic was real and who did think that there was something special and supernatural about a berserker.  Whether we agree with them or not isn't relevant.</blockquote>

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