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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5056846" data-attributes="member: 82106">Sure Avin, but what is the point of a discussion about 4e where the nonsense level is so high that nothing can be meaningfully discussed? At some point people have to drop out of hyperbole mode in order to actually have a discussion (or not and it can just be a flame fest like this thread seems to have turned into).One of the things you simply cannot do in a discussion like this is really debate things that are entirely matters of opinion. For instance it is absurd to me to say that &quot;4e is uninspiring&quot; but yet that opinion is simply an opinion and there really is no debating it. More than that it really isn't an alterable fact and no amount of talking about it will change the uninspired guy to suddenly be inspired by 4e, its a state of mind and his opinion on that is a fact about him not about the game. Its fine to mention things like that but lets just move on from that sort of thing as there's no point in arguing about it.Now, more fact based opinions are at least things that can be discussed, like KD's (IMHO overblown) opinion about 4e magic items. Still, there's no real point in debating it endlessly, the facts have been laid out.Honestly one of the main things I get out of all these discussions is how far the whole concept of playing an RPG has (at least in D&amp;D circles) wandered away from its roots in some sense. I don't know about other old time players but to me an RPG system is just a toolbox you use to tell your story. That was ENTIRELY the attitude in the days of OD&amp;D/1e AD&amp;D. If someone had showed up at a table in those days and started going on about the rules they'd be off the table in no time flat because everyone inherently knew that the &quot;rules&quot; were nothing but a convenience. Thus I can't really take purely stylistic criticisms of ANY system seriously. Style is up to the people at the table. You want wacky magic items ala OD&amp;D then simply put them in your game, etc. Its YOUR game, so stop stunting your imaginations with rules trivia and make it fun.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5056846, member: 82106"] Sure Avin, but what is the point of a discussion about 4e where the nonsense level is so high that nothing can be meaningfully discussed? At some point people have to drop out of hyperbole mode in order to actually [b]have[/b] a discussion (or not and it can just be a flame fest like this thread seems to have turned into). One of the things you simply cannot do in a discussion like this is really debate things that are entirely matters of opinion. For instance it is absurd to me to say that "4e is uninspiring" but yet that opinion is simply an opinion and there really is no debating it. More than that it really isn't an alterable fact and no amount of talking about it will change the uninspired guy to suddenly be inspired by 4e, its a state of mind and his opinion on that is a fact [b]about him[/b] not about the game. Its fine to mention things like that but lets just move on from that sort of thing as there's no point in arguing about it. Now, more fact based opinions are at least things that can be discussed, like KD's (IMHO overblown) opinion about 4e magic items. Still, there's no real point in debating it endlessly, the facts have been laid out. Honestly one of the main things I get out of all these discussions is how far the whole concept of playing an RPG has (at least in D&D circles) wandered away from its roots in some sense. I don't know about other old time players but to me an RPG system is just a toolbox you use to tell your story. That was ENTIRELY the attitude in the days of OD&D/1e AD&D. If someone had showed up at a table in those days and started going on about the rules they'd be off the table in no time flat because everyone inherently knew that the "rules" were nothing but a convenience. Thus I can't really take purely stylistic criticisms of ANY system seriously. Style is up to the people at the table. You want wacky magic items ala OD&D then simply put them in your game, etc. Its YOUR game, so stop stunting your imaginations with rules trivia and make it fun. [/QUOTE]

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