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<blockquote data-quote="Turtlejay" data-source="post: 5057049" data-attributes="member: 70267">Ugh.&nbsp;I realize I replied *after* the main flame war had ignited (no naming names. . .that always starts trouble) but I had hoped that if everyone ignored it we could still have an interesting discussion *around* the fighting.&nbsp; Now it seems this thread will either die due to apathy or devolve to the point where it is locked.&nbsp; Yay?&nbsp;I don't think most people would argue that 4e is terribly Simulationist.&nbsp; That's not what it was built to do.&nbsp; You can't take something that was balanced for gameplay, like the magic item costs (and largely abstract, too.&nbsp; Sure, things increase in price/level at a predictable rate, but who judges what level things are?) and plug it into real-world economy models and make it work.&nbsp;Sadly though, in the context of the OP you are right, but I don't think this is as big of a deal breaker as you seem to think.&nbsp;Strangely, the one thing that I have felt nostalgic about (from 3.5) lately is also one thing I normally don't miss.&nbsp; I was looking through some notes from an old 3.5 campaign I was in, and I have pages of notes that are lists of loot collected, with scrawled hints (light transmutation?!&nbsp; glows?) near some.&nbsp; It is fun to look back and see the process that magic items used to be.&nbsp; A party might collect eight swords from the bandits, and Detect Magic to discover one was magical.&nbsp; You could guess at the property from the aura given off, but until you had the pearl you didn't know for sure what you had.&nbsp; Also, with most games I was in, we collected every scrap of mundane loot to sell.&nbsp; Shopping days were a pain, but fun in their own way.&nbsp;Oddly, like I said, I don't miss this at all, but I don't really like its replacement either.&nbsp; I know in my own current game, we found some magic items that just sat unclaimed for a few sessions.&nbsp; I don't know if we are too polite, or if the daunting prospect of selling something for a tiny return is too much. . .&nbsp;I'm having a hard time thinking of things *not* related to magic items and the economy.&nbsp; I reject the complaints that 4e is&nbsp;- Homogenous&nbsp;- Grindy&nbsp;- Too Simple&nbsp;- Too Complicated&nbsp;- WoWlike/videogamey&nbsp;Jay</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Turtlejay, post: 5057049, member: 70267"] Ugh. I realize I replied *after* the main flame war had ignited (no naming names. . .that always starts trouble) but I had hoped that if everyone ignored it we could still have an interesting discussion *around* the fighting. Now it seems this thread will either die due to apathy or devolve to the point where it is locked. Yay? I don't think most people would argue that 4e is terribly Simulationist. That's not what it was built to do. You can't take something that was balanced for gameplay, like the magic item costs (and largely abstract, too. Sure, things increase in price/level at a predictable rate, but who judges what level things are?) and plug it into real-world economy models and make it work. Sadly though, in the context of the OP you are right, but I don't think this is as big of a deal breaker as you seem to think. Strangely, the one thing that I have felt nostalgic about (from 3.5) lately is also one thing I normally don't miss. I was looking through some notes from an old 3.5 campaign I was in, and I have pages of notes that are lists of loot collected, with scrawled hints (light transmutation?! glows?) near some. It is fun to look back and see the process that magic items used to be. A party might collect eight swords from the bandits, and Detect Magic to discover one was magical. You could guess at the property from the aura given off, but until you had the pearl you didn't know for sure what you had. Also, with most games I was in, we collected every scrap of mundane loot to sell. Shopping days were a pain, but fun in their own way. Oddly, like I said, I don't miss this at all, but I don't really like its replacement either. I know in my own current game, we found some magic items that just sat unclaimed for a few sessions. I don't know if we are too polite, or if the daunting prospect of selling something for a tiny return is too much. . . I'm having a hard time thinking of things *not* related to magic items and the economy. I reject the complaints that 4e is - Homogenous - Grindy - Too Simple - Too Complicated - WoWlike/videogamey Jay [/QUOTE]

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