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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Valiant" data-source="post: 3914267" data-attributes="member: 54792">Depends on the group.  We had a really good DM and begged the guy not to stop.  I took over as DM not by choice but as a last resort (and I wasn't as good).  ANd as much as I love DMing and testing my players in a world I make up, I really miss the old days when I didn't understand the rules, but simply adventured keeping track of HPs and equipment only (when there was still some mystery left). As far as when do players in 3e learn combat and save rules?  Immediately, they are in the Players Handbook and players are expected to understand them before play.  The 3e DMG and MM also seemed  to be marketed to players when they were released (not just the DMs) a smart marketing move for sure, and maybe the reason they went with the D20 system in the first place (book sales are where all the profit is).</blockquote>