Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8981702" data-attributes="member: 6790260">To start off: it's not that I don't like dungeons at all, but rather that I find a fixation upon them dull, for exactly the same reason that if 75% of the enemies you fight were dragons, it would get dull (and I adore dragons.) Dungeons are a part of <s>this balanced breakfast</s> most good campaigns, but they sour quickly if over-used. With that caveat in mind...I don't like that a lot of dungeons make zero sense if you stop to think about them for even a few minutes. Why is there the guts of an old castle in the middle of nowhere, full of relatively easily-stolen valuables, and a bunch of monsters that wouldn't actually benefit from trying to live there? The MST3k mantra is all well and good, but I want either a strong narrative and/or naturalistic reason why a thing is the way it is.* I can suspend my disbelief once or twice, but after a while those nagging doubts refuse to be ignored. When I hear that something is a "dungeon crawl," that tells me in advance that these sorts of doubts are likely to crop up--and that I'm likely to be given the MST3k mantra ("just repeat to yourself, it's just a game, you should really just relax") if I mention them.Beyond that, though, dungeons are pretty limited, conceptually. You have actual literal dungeons, crypts/burial sites. Maybe a lost, ruined city now and then. But in general, when someone says "dungeon crawl," they mean an adventure which will:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">be primarily underground</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">feature mostly things constructed by people (or something sufficiently people-like)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">have lots of long,. tight corridors, often filled with a pretty standard set of traps (pits, Indiana Jones-style buzzsaws, poison darts, crushing rooms, etc.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">not really have much significance beyond the murderhole-heist itself</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">be populated with mindless dungeon things (e.g. gelatinous cubes) or poorly-explained Always Evil soldier-types</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">be formally or at least effectively linear (that is, you can explore where you like, but a fixed sequence of actions is required to get to the end)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">require a potentially-quite-tedious "how do we get the loot OUT" challenge at the end</li> </ul>There's essentially no room for intrigue, long-term narrative is rare at best, "exploration" feels confined by the nature of the typical dungeon environment, and it generally feels just a bit...well, canned. Instant adventure, just add characters.Time to get positive! Really classic dungeon crawls make for a great palate-cleanser adventure. Something simple, no frills, just playing the game and being buds. Biggest challenge will be some kind of puzzle or logistical problem. And because a really classic dungeon crawl is a sort of blank canvas, it can have other outside themes painted on it relatively easily. It doesn't offer any richness itself, in much the same way that white rice doesn't offer any richness itself, but it can soak up some other thing's flavor. Of course, that puts a lot of emphasis on the metaphorical sauce, but there's a good reason rice is such a common foodstuff IRL.Personally I think these responses are edition-agnostic. If I were going to talk about any specific game, it would be 4e, 13A, or DW. Dungeon crawls tend to be more palatable in 4e/13A because (a) the fights themselves are a lot more interesting, (b) skill challenges give more structured and textured non-combat challenges, and (c) personal quests and other such things allow some intrusion, even in the otherwise "canned" space, of the deeper meaning/long-term stuff that are my true D&D love.13A isn't quite as tactically rich, but it's pretty close, and it's got some other fun things like montages, and item quirks can make even a bland dungeon crawl more interesting as they add an extra layer of personality. Part of the fun with 13A is just that it leans really heavily into the high-flying action, so even a dungeon crawl should be a dramatic experience.Finally, DW...well, because of how you're supposed to play it, a "dungeon crawl" is...well. I can't say you CAN'T have one (arguably, that's what my players did for their first adventure), but the nature of the rules makes it so the unknown remains tantalizingly close. "Draw maps, leave blanks," "Think offscreen too," and a bunch of other things...they all combine to ensure that no dungeon crawl ever goes quite the way you think it will. Even if you're the GM.*As an example, I made an adventure location which was a lost city. That's not really a "dungeon" in the usual sense, but it was an abandoned ruin full of treasure to recover, so it's an approximate fit. I made sure there were answers for the naturalistic and narrative questions about the city. Why was it there? Natural geothermal caldera, city formed from the marriage of co-ruling efreet and marid noble genies. Why was it abandoned? The genie exodus to Jinnistan, long ago. Why was it lost? The desert sand covered up the external land entrance, so it just looked like any other mountain from the outside. Why was it found? The mysterious shifting winds of the past few years have revealed a lot of things previously hidden in the desert, including this. Etc.</blockquote>

Verification