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<blockquote data-quote="JRRNeiklot" data-source="post: 1536908" data-attributes="member: 717">I think Loki is disappointed with 3e and is blaming it on the dm.&nbsp; I have played with a lot worse dm's than what he described.&nbsp; Hell, that sounded like a fun game.&nbsp; I've ran across the &quot;impassable cliff&quot; before too.&nbsp; I ran a module where the pcs had to go to a certain place, but they wanted to cross the river instead, to cut some time off.&nbsp; Well, it was either let 'em cross and come up with 4 hours of adventure on the spot, or stop them from crossing somehow.&nbsp; So, I made the current incredibly tough, and threw random encounters at them every few minutes or so, until they got the picture.&nbsp; Railtroad?&nbsp; perhaps, but I work for a living, and didn't have time to provide for their taking that particular course of action.&nbsp; You can find a similar scenario in Kenzer's &quot;Knight of the Dinner Table.&quot;&nbsp; Remember when BA had the huge fence with the cow behind it?&nbsp; The fence was there, so the group wouldn't go off-map and would get to the dungeon, but to the player's there HAD to be a reason that cow was being kept in such a high security area.&nbsp; Turns out the cow was just scenery.&nbsp; Now these impassible, cliff, rivers, fences, may seem somewhat lame, but do any of us really want to spend the whole night with the dm running randomly generated terrain and rolling for random encounters?&nbsp; This advances the plot nowhere.&nbsp; Now, what I meant by the rules thing is that I have seen to many players - excellent role players, btw, say &quot;I bluff my way past the guard.&quot;&nbsp; No role playing, just that and a d20 roll.&nbsp; Then the dm has to tell them what there character said to get by!&nbsp; Now, not every game is like this, but imo, 3e promotes that kind of play.&nbsp; Hell, I'd give bonus eps to hear a character say &quot;Me Grok, me here to make mighty weapons for Jarl.&nbsp; Me bring puny dwarf to be slave!&quot; *points at the&nbsp; dwarf pc*But, no, all I get is &quot;I bluff the guard&quot; *rolls d20*.&nbsp; :-(*Disclaimer - This is not a bash on 3e, all editions have their weaknesses, but I honestly believe 3e DOES lend itself better to &quot;roll playing.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; There are ways around it, but not if you play by the rules as written.&nbsp; *</blockquote>

[QUOTE="JRRNeiklot, post: 1536908, member: 717"] I think Loki is disappointed with 3e and is blaming it on the dm. I have played with a lot worse dm's than what he described. Hell, that sounded like a fun game. I've ran across the "impassable cliff" before too. I ran a module where the pcs had to go to a certain place, but they wanted to cross the river instead, to cut some time off. Well, it was either let 'em cross and come up with 4 hours of adventure on the spot, or stop them from crossing somehow. So, I made the current incredibly tough, and threw random encounters at them every few minutes or so, until they got the picture. Railtroad? perhaps, but I work for a living, and didn't have time to provide for their taking that particular course of action. You can find a similar scenario in Kenzer's "Knight of the Dinner Table." Remember when BA had the huge fence with the cow behind it? The fence was there, so the group wouldn't go off-map and would get to the dungeon, but to the player's there HAD to be a reason that cow was being kept in such a high security area. Turns out the cow was just scenery. Now these impassible, cliff, rivers, fences, may seem somewhat lame, but do any of us really want to spend the whole night with the dm running randomly generated terrain and rolling for random encounters? This advances the plot nowhere. Now, what I meant by the rules thing is that I have seen to many players - excellent role players, btw, say "I bluff my way past the guard." No role playing, just that and a d20 roll. Then the dm has to tell them what there character said to get by! Now, not every game is like this, but imo, 3e promotes that kind of play. Hell, I'd give bonus eps to hear a character say "Me Grok, me here to make mighty weapons for Jarl. Me bring puny dwarf to be slave!" *points at the dwarf pc* But, no, all I get is "I bluff the guard" *rolls d20*. :-( *Disclaimer - This is not a bash on 3e, all editions have their weaknesses, but I honestly believe 3e DOES lend itself better to "roll playing." There are ways around it, but not if you play by the rules as written. * [/QUOTE]

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