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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Psion" data-source="post: 1538002" data-attributes="member: 172">I see this totally the other way. It seems to me that rolling first and then roleplaying, you are far more likely to invalidate your roll. Players are more random than dice.The "middle ground" as he seems to be explaining it (and I agree with) is that by the time you make that roll, the DM will have factored in any pertinent points of the roleplaying into the DC. What you do and say should have a very real result on the outcome of a roll. If you choose to appeal to a character's motivation, for example, your chances are much better that you will prevail. But after the roll, the roleplaying continues, reflecting the outcome of the roll (and roleplaying). The roll is just a decision point amidst the roleplaying.Now perhaps your problem is that you think that the result of the roll would be reflected in the tenor of the roleplaying. (FWIW, my players, though perhaps jokingly at times, DO this with their skill checks. For example, if they fail a spot check abysmally they rationalize what happened with quips like "I'm over tending to my horse." Which is great AFAIAC.) And that's a fair point. I sort of think I try to have it both ways as far as this goes.Let me explain, starting with explaining my perception of the role of the DM and the skill system. AFAIAC, the characters eyes and ears, in fact the whole interface with the world, are the skill system (and other aspects of the system). The DM provides descriptions of what is going on in the world in terms as the character perceives them. For example, if the character fails a spot check, the DM might so "your eyes comb the landscape, but you see no signs of your pursuers."I see social skills in the same light. The DM must, using the system, translate character intentions into game reality. When the player roleplays something, they are, from my viewpoint, expressing their intention. The actuality may be quite different. How many times have you thought up something charming to say (for example, to sooth tensions with a spouse or lover) and it turned out totally different than you intended? Guess what -- that is, to me, the moment you made a bad dice roll.It could be similar in a game. If a player comes ups to an NPC and appeals to their poverty with a flash of gold in order to get them to do something for them, the roll might be pretty easy. But a failed roll might mean that the character did not come off the way that they intended -- for example, presented themselves in a manner that seemed threatening to the PC.Also, the results of a random roll in the game often reflect things that are not explicitly planned. In real life, there is probably a non-random reason for many things that we randomize in the game... like getting in a car wreck because you weren't paying attention because someone made you really angry on a message board because thay called you a name that due to your childhood you are really sensitive too, etc. Random things aren't really truly random, but often reflect things that you do not perceive or control.So the reason that a diplomacy session (or almost any skill use) goes awry might have nothing to do with quantum level random variations, but rather, things that the players just don't see. Like, the NPC is having a bad day, or you reminded him of a sensitive situation or person, or he doesn't like people wielding rapiers -- or whatever. Minute details finer than it is productive to actually track in the game.Well, I've blathered long enough, but I do hope I have explained my stance without rubbing anyone the wrong way. If your method works for you and your players, have a blast with it. The only reason I am drawn to respond in this way is because I absolutely do not feel that having social skills makes roleplaying defunct, and further, I think it can make it more interesting and provide results that I can play off of to make the game still more interesting.</blockquote>

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