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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bedrockgames" data-source="post: 5811895" data-attributes="member: 85555">Pemerton again i think you are making a semantic argument more than anything else by trying to turn everything on the term system and draw roleplay into that definition in order to deconstruct any dstinction between rp and roll play. I just dont buy this personally. I think it is perfectly obvious i was talking about a mechanical system and wouldn't include the gm having a method based on motives, dialogue, etc in there. To me there is an enormous difference between using a set of mechanics to determine success or failure of a particular dialoge or action, vs resolving it by playing the character fully. The later is a much more role play heavy experience than one which glosses over the details and opts for a roll (or any mechanical system). Again i am not saying social rolls are bad or you shouldn't use them. I use them myself and incude them in games I design. What I am saying is people should try a social skill and perception skill holiday and see if it impacts their role playing experience in a positive way. To me dialogue is not required to be role playing (i may nt have been clear enough on this) but it is at the far end of the role play spectrum. To me, and I think for the vast majority of gamers until the last eight years or so, "i trick the duke with a diplomacy roll" is ust as far on the gaming side of the hobby as making an attack roll. There can still be rp here, but once the mechanics take priority, what you say in character matters less and less.  The stuff you actually role play matters less than the result of the roll.  No matter how you "frame" it, you are removed at least a step from the character, motivations, the environment etc. I also think your focus on the "fiction" of it is part of ur disagreement here, depending on how you use the term. To me it is about the experience, not about generating a fiction. I want to have the feel of solving the riddle, be emgaged in he critical conversation to talk the duke out of betraying his people etc. Yes i also want game elements in play occassionally as well. But i find after years of doing both the social skills and doig it without them, they damatically impact the level of heavy role play ad immersion at the table (even for players who were adamant they had no such effect).</blockquote>

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