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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9316764" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>So I think <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/" target="_blank">this from Edwards</a> is relevant: </p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">How does conflict of interest relate to Step On Up and to Challenge? The crucial answer is that it may be present <em>twice, independently,</em> within the two-level structure.</p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Competition at the Step On Up level = conflict of interest regarding players' performance and impact <em>on</em> the game-world.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Competition at the Challenge level = conflict of interest among characters' priorities (survival, resource accumulation, whatever) <em>in</em> the game-world.</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Think of each level having a little red dial, from 1 to 11 - and those dials can be twisted independently. Therefore, four extremes of dial-twisting may be compared.</p> <ol style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">High competition in Step On Up plus low competition in Challenge = entirely team-based play, party style against a shared Challenge, but with value placed on some other metric of winning among the real people, such as levelling-up faster, having the best stuff, having one's player-characters be killed less often, getting more Victory Points, or some such thing. Most Tunnels & Trolls play is like this.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Low competition in Step On Up plus high competition in Challenge = characters are constantly scheming on one another or perhaps openly trying to kill or outdo another but the players aren't especially competing, because consequences to the player are low per unit win/loss. Kobolds Ate My Baby and the related game, Ninja Burger, play this way.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">High competition in both levels = moving toward the Hard Core (see below), including strong rules-manipulation, often observed in variants of Dungeons & Dragons as well in much LARP play. A risky way to play, but plenty of fun if you have a well-designed system like Rune.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Low competition in both levels = strong focus on Step On Up and Challenge but with little need for conflict-of-interest. Quite a bit of D&D based on story-heavy published scenarios plays this way. It shares some features with "characters face problem" Simulationist play, with the addition of a performance metric of some kind. Some T&T play Drifted this way as well, judging by many Sorcerer's Apprentice articles.</li> </ol><p></p><p>Looking at that last dot point, we can see that play in which <em>characters face problems/challenges</em> may be purely exploratory, and hence simulationist. It's the introduction of the <em>performance metric</em> that makes it "step on up"/gamist. I think [USER=7044566]@thefutilist[/USER] captures the notion of a performance metric in the wording of "it wouldn't feel earned". <em>Earning</em> an outcome is a type of performance metric.</p><p></p><p>An RPG that might be played in way that includes characters facing problems, which are challenges for them in the fiction, but which is <em>not</em> gamist because it doesn't have a performance metric, could be Fate. Maybe some approaches to GUMSHOE?</p><p></p><p>Played in this way, within Edwards' framework these would be High Concept Sim, but perhaps with a different sort of player/GM authority structure from the one that was most prevalent when he was writing 20 years ago.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9316764, member: 42582"] So I think [URL='http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/']this from Edwards[/URL] is relevant: [indent]How does conflict of interest relate to Step On Up and to Challenge? The crucial answer is that it may be present [I]twice, independently,[/I] within the two-level structure. [LIST] [*]Competition at the Step On Up level = conflict of interest regarding players' performance and impact [I]on[/I] the game-world. [*]Competition at the Challenge level = conflict of interest among characters' priorities (survival, resource accumulation, whatever) [I]in[/I] the game-world. [/LIST] Think of each level having a little red dial, from 1 to 11 - and those dials can be twisted independently. Therefore, four extremes of dial-twisting may be compared. [LIST=1] [*]High competition in Step On Up plus low competition in Challenge = entirely team-based play, party style against a shared Challenge, but with value placed on some other metric of winning among the real people, such as levelling-up faster, having the best stuff, having one's player-characters be killed less often, getting more Victory Points, or some such thing. Most Tunnels & Trolls play is like this. [*]Low competition in Step On Up plus high competition in Challenge = characters are constantly scheming on one another or perhaps openly trying to kill or outdo another but the players aren't especially competing, because consequences to the player are low per unit win/loss. Kobolds Ate My Baby and the related game, Ninja Burger, play this way. [*]High competition in both levels = moving toward the Hard Core (see below), including strong rules-manipulation, often observed in variants of Dungeons & Dragons as well in much LARP play. A risky way to play, but plenty of fun if you have a well-designed system like Rune. [*]Low competition in both levels = strong focus on Step On Up and Challenge but with little need for conflict-of-interest. Quite a bit of D&D based on story-heavy published scenarios plays this way. It shares some features with "characters face problem" Simulationist play, with the addition of a performance metric of some kind. Some T&T play Drifted this way as well, judging by many Sorcerer's Apprentice articles. [/LIST][/indent] Looking at that last dot point, we can see that play in which [I]characters face problems/challenges[/I] may be purely exploratory, and hence simulationist. It's the introduction of the [I]performance metric[/I] that makes it "step on up"/gamist. I think [USER=7044566]@thefutilist[/USER] captures the notion of a performance metric in the wording of "it wouldn't feel earned". [I]Earning[/I] an outcome is a type of performance metric. An RPG that might be played in way that includes characters facing problems, which are challenges for them in the fiction, but which is [I]not[/I] gamist because it doesn't have a performance metric, could be Fate. Maybe some approaches to GUMSHOE? Played in this way, within Edwards' framework these would be High Concept Sim, but perhaps with a different sort of player/GM authority structure from the one that was most prevalent when he was writing 20 years ago. [/QUOTE]
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