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What Games do you think are Neotrad?
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<blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 9317225" data-attributes="member: 6801252"><p>Yesn't, in the sense that you are completely correct about it being very common, and those people playing in (something approaching) that style, its largely been conflated with trad until recently, and largely rejected by the Story Now movement (which does raise some Chomskyish concerns for me about the semiotics Forge deploys and its utility in producing non-Forge outcomes, I see that language as being very particular to the values of that movement.) You can see a lot of this in recent controversy about Brennan Lee Mulligan's comments about needing game rules because he can't intuit the flight of an arrow in the same way he can intuit a conversation.</p><p></p><p>Edit: To back up the potentially controversial statement a little, to my mind, this little FAQ statement in the simulationist essay recently being discussed, is a fairly offhand rejection of what I regard as Negative Space:</p><p></p><p>Edwards veers back to this here:</p><p></p><p>and here:</p><p></p><p>I think what's very interesting in discussing Neo-trad utilizing this language, is that OC/Neotrad (without commentary on their separation) can be understood as the position that play-mediated-through-social-contract IS the core form of play at work in the TTRPG. I think, this cause and effect chain isn't represented historically in the wargame roots of the game (though its probably represented historically in the roots of wargames) but is represented in the personal story of play in adopting system for purpose.</p><p></p><p>System arising as an enhancement of that play, is naturally constrained to solving the problems he attempts to identify as being endemic to social contract based play-- but whereas he flattens the distinctions between the needs of each moment in his discussion of negotiation, Mulligan's comments (which I regard as admissible to a Neo-trad canon) about the arrow emphasize the importance of those distinctions in the necessity of procedure in comparing differentiated moments of play.</p><p></p><p>This further induces a kind of breakdown in the difficulty of simulation, as simulation itself develops a level of gamism that arises naturally from the activity that engendered it. You could see this as "If we were to add rules to our FKR to make it better, how would we go about doing that" you wouldn't add something unfun (although someone else might find your fun, unfun) to that because then you'd simply sand it back off using the control group of social contract negotiation (how willing my friends are to put up with my ruling about whether they hit when they shoot a bow.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The-Magic-Sword, post: 9317225, member: 6801252"] Yesn't, in the sense that you are completely correct about it being very common, and those people playing in (something approaching) that style, its largely been conflated with trad until recently, and largely rejected by the Story Now movement (which does raise some Chomskyish concerns for me about the semiotics Forge deploys and its utility in producing non-Forge outcomes, I see that language as being very particular to the values of that movement.) You can see a lot of this in recent controversy about Brennan Lee Mulligan's comments about needing game rules because he can't intuit the flight of an arrow in the same way he can intuit a conversation. Edit: To back up the potentially controversial statement a little, to my mind, this little FAQ statement in the simulationist essay recently being discussed, is a fairly offhand rejection of what I regard as Negative Space: Edwards veers back to this here: and here: I think what's very interesting in discussing Neo-trad utilizing this language, is that OC/Neotrad (without commentary on their separation) can be understood as the position that play-mediated-through-social-contract IS the core form of play at work in the TTRPG. I think, this cause and effect chain isn't represented historically in the wargame roots of the game (though its probably represented historically in the roots of wargames) but is represented in the personal story of play in adopting system for purpose. System arising as an enhancement of that play, is naturally constrained to solving the problems he attempts to identify as being endemic to social contract based play-- but whereas he flattens the distinctions between the needs of each moment in his discussion of negotiation, Mulligan's comments (which I regard as admissible to a Neo-trad canon) about the arrow emphasize the importance of those distinctions in the necessity of procedure in comparing differentiated moments of play. This further induces a kind of breakdown in the difficulty of simulation, as simulation itself develops a level of gamism that arises naturally from the activity that engendered it. You could see this as "If we were to add rules to our FKR to make it better, how would we go about doing that" you wouldn't add something unfun (although someone else might find your fun, unfun) to that because then you'd simply sand it back off using the control group of social contract negotiation (how willing my friends are to put up with my ruling about whether they hit when they shoot a bow.) [/QUOTE]
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