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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9722072" data-attributes="member: 18">Well that's your problem right there, as they say.The selling point of Draw Steel! is that it's a tactical combat-focused heroic fantasy RPG. If your players aren't interested in tactical combat and you also aren't then, yeah that is definitely not the game for you. Especially if you know this to be true from 4E.That said, Draw Steel! is not as complicated or fiddly in combat at PF2 is. It's more tactical but it's more about positioning and combos and so on, but it's not got that clunky (imho) three-action structure and the annoying way of working out hits and crits and so on that PF2 has.I get this but this is a very temporary and minor problem in my experience. Like, unless you have group who really struggle with rules (in which case all new non-rules-light games will be difficult to adapt to), it won't past a session or two. Once the players themselves understand how their PCs work you don't need to keep track of it anymore. DS! has a lot of choices one might question but it doesn't have terribly complex rules. I'd go as far as to say they're significantly less complex than 5E, let alone PF2.I mean, there's an open question as to whether that's something that's viable in this kind of design.Essentially retreating is not viable in 3E, 4E, or 5E D&D. Retreating, RAW, and without the DM being intentionally generous, is just a good way to ensure a TPK (or perhaps a TPK for all but one PC, if there's a PC who is a lot faster than both all the other PCs and all the opponents, and can sufficiently outrange enemy ranged attacks/spells) in all those editions, short of things like magic which teleports the entire party away or temporarily CCs the enemy (which is not very accessible).You need to fundamentally design with retreating being a major and viable mode of play if you want that to really work, and few games do that, because they simply don't simulate the factors that make retreats viable IRL (particularly that being that pursuing enemies don't want to die or even become exhausted IRL, whereas in easily 95% of D&D combats, enemies are run as 100% uncaring for their own lives and well-being - HP existing makes this issue much worse because DMs can be too certain enemies can "safely" pursue even if they incur some damage, which helps make retreating invalid as a strategy in D&D), and far too many fantasy beings and monsters are far too good at killing people fleeing battle.</blockquote>

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