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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sorrowdusk" data-source="post: 5809752" data-attributes="member: 96342">But thing is by default in 3rd, Paladins MUST be Lawful Good. Its in the SRD and the Core Book/PHB. BUT.....until you get into Variant Rules and Variant classes you dont get Freedom, Slaughter, And Tyranny Paladins. Those are variant or alternative rules -but not core (canon? Dare I say that?) 3e rules. There's a reason why they are "variants" in 3rd and not presented as "outright" core options -otherwise they would have never restricted Pally's alignment by "default" and put the rest as "variants" to the rules.Now I'm not saying you cant play with those variant rules, but to me, what seems like base/core/iconic fluff sets up paladin (although some above have said they dont like the Galahad 'stereotype') as LG. To me, non-LG paladin...just isnt paladin. Quietly as its kept, that Lawful Stupid or Stupid Good stick in the mud scenario/joke cropped up for a reason over the years. In every group I have ever been in, and the people I have asked up to this point (and perhaps thats my 'luck' nothing says you HAVE to play the same way. But then again, we say barbarians 'cant be lawful' too, but nothing stops you from playing anyway you want) but I have never seen anyone allow alt alignment pallys when anybody wamted to play them.  Matter of fact, the 4e Blackguard isnt LE or even "Evil" in the edition actually -he doesnt have to be evil. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm    :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />I guess it's just I prefer old cosmology. See...old pact primeval (specifically going on Fiendish Codices here) was that you had Obyriths come first (cosmic horror) out of the Chaos, and then the Gods and entities of Law who opposed them. The gods created their own stuff and mortals on it and fought back the demons (both Obyrith and their Tanar'ri creations). One thing it mentions, is that demons (yes demons) corrupted mortals (thats right, Devils would become 'masters' of the art, demons did it too in their own way. FCI even addresses demons not as tempters but as 'corruptors', as an archetype that goes about it in a different way) -they NOT ONLY kill-maim-burned...but they also encouraged mortals to embrace the 'absolute freedom' of Chaos.  With true absolute freedom, they could literally do ANYTHING they wanted, without any restrictions or limitations at all.The gods of law (there were no gods of good yet, only pure law) DID NOT like this. They saw mortals were disobeying their laws, and so they agreed they had to punish them. But how? Well OZZY & Friends had been fighting against Chaos all this time in the Abyss, and had been tainted by it. Their forms were warped by the malevolence that rubbed off on them (warping them, and making evil but still orderly on principle and hence LE).  The gods of Law were disgusted by those that returned from the war -but Ozzy had a solution. NOT ONLY would he and his men leave, but they would also establish their OWN realm and....they would punish mortals with eternal torment. (Being evil, they would be quite good at this, and the gods of Law had absolutely no problems, because at this time it wasnt about Good vs Evil, so they considered them to be on the same side. Actually...they would be interesting to see a pure Order vs Chaos D&D setting/universe, where 'classic' Good vs Evil isnt the main conflict).However as we know....Ozzy pulled a fast one on them with a technicality, after which the Gods of Law broke up, some being definitvely Good with others neutral and some siding with the Devils as LE. Some thought the desire to enforce order so heavily, mucked up everything and went to Chaos -as Chaotic Good, the same 'freedom' chaos represented, but without hurting anyone and acting on a moral imperative to uphold others freedom.The way I have looked at demons in 3e by comparison, was not the nihilistic Oblivionists they are in 4e, but more like the Chaos Gods/Powers in Warhammer 40K.  Nurgle (Despair), Khorne (Rage), Slaanesh (Desire), Tzeentch (Hope/Ambition). They represent VAST extremes of emotion without limitation, and in the same way the Demon Lords wish to be worshipped as gods, (just as 40K Chaos Powers do) -but they are NOT Chaotic Stupid. (Khorne is definitely chaotic evil, and demands his followers fight each other if they have no foes as sacrifice, but even he knows it would be too great a loss for his very BEST Greater Daemons and Chaos Champions to fight, so he forbades it most of the time).They do NOT want to go "cackling off into the void even as they themselves are destroyed" as an above poster described 4e demons by comparison. Just as the Chaos Powers LIVE and maintain themselves by the emotions of living mortals, so too do the Demon Lords desire godhood maintained by the worship of living mortals so...they dont want to wipe them all out. Warp beyond recognition to be sure, with prayer-gangs hand in hand literally encircling entire planets with chanting , war worlds and arenas are soaked with blood for the blood god, plague worlds with swamps of human viscera in which the afflicted marvel at undeath and stagnation and their own ailments, and worlds where entire civilizations are gripped by excess in which every individual exists to exploited and to exploit others for pleasure. Just replace planets with planes (especially, other Material planes).Now, that may be a different setting, but thats how I feel  Law vs Chaos works, and how chaos should be defined (which as some said, WoTC could not do ) The Imperium of Man went out into space in the great crusade and CONQUERED every planet humans inhabited. There was no such thing as resisting The Empire, or being alongside it. Those worlds that would not bow down to The Emperor were met with unyielding force. The Imperium is not good in fact there is very little good-hey they invented/inspired the word 'grimdark' and the Imperium is willing to sacrifce vast numbers to maintain its order (OH and if you are a non-human even if benevolent AKA a Xenos, or a human BUT a deformed crippled mutant? You're a "heretic" by virtue of your blood. And heretics need to be purged. Violently.) At the same time you look at pure fluff/in setting books books like Liber Chaotica (with some cultist interviews/interrogations) and Black Crusade, and you can see WHY people (who are NOT insane) would turn to Chaos. Now, not all those who serve chaos are 'evil' as Black Crusade states, (albeit they are rare) but they are always self-interested individuals who 'Walk the path of glory', very often with a personal hatred of the Empire. But dam, I have digressed.</blockquote>

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