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Message: <blockquote data-quote="rendarkin" data-source="post: 265746" data-attributes="member: 5817">Hmmm... I never can tell with absolute statements like that whether people are being serious or joking.  I have to assume on the context you are being serious, but I'm trying to see some humor in there...How do you rate a "sane DM"?  How, in a world full of magical and impossible rules can you say anything would "never" allow something to happen?  Does context not matter?If I ran a campaign with a sane, slow progression and levels earned over years or careful and entertaining play, I can see myself DMing a 20th level party (it wouldn't be the first time...).  Templates are applied to creatures of any level.  To use an absurd example, a 5th level fighter could have been overwhlemed by a vampire and turned into a vampire slave.  Killing the master vampire now leaves my campaign with a 5th level fighter vampire running around, terrorizing people.  MwuhahAHAHA!  But I have a 20th level player in my long-standing campaign and he's decided to steal vampiric immortality from this vampire.  Rolling up his sleeves, the mage calls up his shield guardian and his iron golem, put on his 20th-level worth of treasure, casts some protective spells, hunts down the vampire and utterly overwhelms him.Control Undead forcing a vampire to drink someone's blood is a no brainer; that's even in the vampire's nature, so once the poor 5th level fighter fails the save against the 20th level wizard, he cheerfully (and compulsively) kills the mage.  The golem and guardian wipe the vampire out (the vampire's powers all neutralized through various wizardly means (wind wall go the gaseous form can't escape, or a wall of force, etc.)...What's to not allow as a "sane" DM?  How can you possible categorically say "forcing a vampire to do X" is unallowable in any campaign??Who's to say what should or shouldn't happen to a PC in a "sane" DM's game?  Where is it written that the templates are NPC-only?  That's your belief; I thought we were discussing the rules as written (I could have been wrong).(there are of course more and more situations I could consider that may or may not change your mind: What if the DM is running an evil PC game?  Would that matter at all?  Context is always sooo important)(Oh, and you just said in your post that a vampire has a lot more limitations, so I don't see where the "unconsequential power" part comes from...)Curious, as always, about absolute statements that people make...-Rendarkin</blockquote>

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