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Message: <blockquote data-quote="rendarkin" data-source="post: 266056" data-attributes="member: 5817">ApologyJeremy,I'm sorry about the above post.  It was unneccesary and you are right about my misguided (read: wrong) use of the Advancement.I found the references to effective level in chapter 2 of the DMG and found +2/+3/+whatever for various templates, but not for the lich.  The absense of the lich proves nothing, other than they didn't do a comprehensive job.Part of my problem is that after years of buying Dragons and the endless D&d supplements I'm sticking to core rules in 3e.  ECL isn't defined in the 3 core books, but a partial attempt at ECL is in the DMG under playing monsters as characters.  I didn't buy the FRCS and don't HAVE the full rules for ECL, but it is clear how it works.I understand your point about the ECL of a lich, really I do, I just personally don't like it and don't think it is a solution that works for me (I'll get to that in a different post).  I have no doubt it (or a PrC) works for plenty of other people and I certainly didn't mean to post anything telling anyone they had the "wrong" solution.  You (and others) have some great ideas and I'm not intending to attack those ideas.I'll get back on point on the next post, but I didn't mean to make anyone angry and I regret having posted the above posting.  Sorry.</blockquote>