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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6999188" data-attributes="member: 6669384">First note:  Widen spell increases area by 50%.  It doesn't double.My "reading" was that I read what it said:  To treat it as a Large creature with a BAB equal to the caster level, and a Strength of 19.  It's not a creature.  Widen wouldn't enlarge a Creature, only a spell.  It simply says to treat it as a creature.Now that 19 Strength is an odd number, and I'm not just talking numerically.  No difference between an 18 and a 19 for spell or grapple effect, since we aren't worried about its carrying capacity, or how fast it can drag something, or whether it can lift something over its non-existent head.  We see odd Strength scores in the MM, because ability scores are based on the "Standard Array" (three tens and three elevens), plus race and size modifiers.  That suggests that the authors really were treating this as a true creature, thinking of that when they wrote/converted it.Enlarge Monster would affect it if it was a Creature, but it isn't.  No AC, no Hit points, no Saves, no stats other than Strength.  An odd Strength.If it was purely a spell though, it would describe the dice rolls a Saves, which it doesn't.  Spells like Web and Entangle call for Reflex Saves, followed by Strength checks to escape.  Not Tentacles though.  It calls for Grapple or Escape Artist checks as opposed rolls.  If they were Saves then Spell Focus would affect the checks, and it doesn't. The damage it does is described as bludgeoning, but it never says if that damage is treated as "magic" or not, for purposes of overcoming DR.  You can't use the standard measure for a creature, that if it has DR/Magic then it's attacks are "magic" for purposes of bypassing DR.  Empower Spell would affect the Grapple checks, since they are random aspects of the spell, but I agree with you that it doesn't and shouldn't.  If we were purely treating it as a creature, it wouldn't affect the damage rolls, and I'm not really sure it should.  Same reasoning as not applying that to the damage from a Summoned monster:  It affects dice rolls for the spell itself, not the aftermath of the spell.So what is it?  Neither fish nor fowl, but a hybrid between a summoned monster and a spell effect.  If you can't Enlarge the creature, I questioned if you could Enlarge (Widen in this case) the spell side of it, and if you did would it still be treated as a "creature" of the new size?Was I looking to further break an already borderline spell?  I don't know.  I play a caster, but I also DM in the same game, so my POV is mixed.I was as interested in the reasoning behind the answers as I was the answers themselves.As for the spell being broken:  It's a slow motion Fireball that does more damage, but allows the victim(s) to escape the damage every round of it's duration.  The extra damage can be accounted for, balance wise, by the fact that it's a higher level spell.  The lack of a Save or To Hit is balanced by the fact that it can be Dispelled or escaped.  Neither Evasion nor a high AC help.So again, neither fish nor fowl:  It's unconventional, as spell mechanics go, but not really all that broken in effect.</blockquote>

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