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<blockquote data-quote="kipling" data-source="post: 1329943" data-attributes="member: 14955">I won't disagree at all that the abstraction of combat in the d20 system can be considered to include all of these things.It can be, it does.I think the &quot;expectations&quot; part is the toughie, though. People who are specifically picking up a swashbuckling game have certain things that they want to do explicitly in their combats, and those things are only part of the abstraction in standard d20 combat.One can argue that they should instead narrate their fights in a way that includes these maneuvers, but the fact is, most of them don't. They don't think of justifying the results given in the combat in terms of the maneuvers that they want to include.In the same sense, how many people are including &quot;I bash him with the pommel of my sword&quot; as part of their d20 fights? Few, I think, unless they're specifically going for subdual damage, and yet the descriptions of medieval fighting I have read certainly include that as a maneuver.If people are asking for a swashbuckling game, then perhaps the current d20 combat system is at the wrong level of abstraction for what they want?(If they can find a copy, they're welcome to try Lace &amp; Steel...)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="kipling, post: 1329943, member: 14955"] I won't disagree at all that the abstraction of combat in the d20 system can be considered to include all of these things. It can be, it does. I think the "expectations" part is the toughie, though. People who are specifically picking up a swashbuckling game have certain things that they want to do explicitly in their combats, and those things are only part of the abstraction in standard d20 combat. One can argue that they should instead narrate their fights in a way that includes these maneuvers, but the fact is, most of them don't. They don't think of justifying the results given in the combat in terms of the maneuvers that they want to include. In the same sense, how many people are including "I bash him with the pommel of my sword" as part of their d20 fights? Few, I think, unless they're specifically going for subdual damage, and yet the descriptions of medieval fighting I have read certainly include that as a maneuver. If people are asking for a swashbuckling game, then perhaps the current d20 combat system is at the wrong level of abstraction for what they want? (If they can find a copy, they're welcome to try [I]Lace & Steel[/I]...) [/QUOTE]

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