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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9337351" data-attributes="member: 87792">This is, to me, a core problem with trying to roleplay in both D&amp;D 5e and in TSR-era D&amp;D. You are forced to choose your character early and after that advancement is on rails and not reflective of what you actually do. To me this isn't a problem. Defining your character at first level and so they shall be ever more, only ever growing in one direction is the problem. Having a split point lessens the problem, especially as almost all classes have subclasses that flow out of how you play naturally (e.g. Champion and Battlemaster fighters).Your defining features come from your class, and your subclass adds detail and variation to that. And in some cases there is fun narrative potential (&quot;I summoned an entity and signed a pact with them. I have magic - but they used a fake name? Who's my patron?&quot;)And it creates two problems:<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">It locks your advancement in at first level. This is IMO bad.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">It provides an overwhelming number of options for new players rather than picking one of the dozen classes then after that one of the half dozen subclasses.</li>
</ul>Now I fully accept that you can go too far in the opposite direction - and too many options on level up are overwhelming and don't add to roleplaying. I fully accept that D&amp;D 3.X, D&amp;D 4e, and Pathfinder 2E have all hugged the rocks close to Scylla -but 5e already risks sailing down Charybdis' throat with the character advancement railroad. Subclass at 3rd level and feats (especially OneD&amp;D feats) both move at least a little further from that whirlpool.This is not a problem with subclasses. This is a problem with 5e (and TSR) design which subclass at third level only does a little to offset. We're on the same page about warlocks.For non-divine casters in D&amp;D we normally call these &quot;Spells&quot; (divine/druidic casters getting their entire spell list is something I've long found a Problem). And I've long been an advocate for &quot;Pure martials&quot; having a &quot;Second Subclass&quot; at level 10 or so to say how they keep up.Not Newbie Friendly. Which is what 5e focuses on. And &quot;builds&quot; are toxic for casual fans (besides, you can play the build-game better in a MOBA, a CRPG, or even a roguelite).I think subclasses are a decent compromise that focuses on accessibility.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 9337351, member: 87792"] This is, to me, a core problem with trying to roleplay in both D&D 5e and in TSR-era D&D. You are forced to choose your character early and after that advancement is on rails and not reflective of what you actually do. To me this [I]isn't[/I] a problem. Defining your character at first level and so they shall be ever more, only ever growing in one direction is the problem. Having a split point lessens the problem, especially as almost all classes have subclasses that flow out of how you play naturally (e.g. Champion and Battlemaster fighters). Your defining features come from your class, and your subclass adds detail and variation to that. And in some cases there is fun narrative potential ("I summoned an entity and signed a pact with them. I have magic - but they used a fake name? Who's my patron?") And it creates two problems: [LIST] [*]It locks your advancement in at first level. This is IMO bad. [*]It provides an overwhelming number of options for new players rather than picking one of the dozen classes then after that one of the half dozen subclasses. [/LIST] Now I fully accept that you can go too far in the opposite direction - and [I]too many[/I] options on level up are overwhelming and don't add to roleplaying. I fully accept that D&D 3.X, D&D 4e, and Pathfinder 2E have all hugged the rocks close to Scylla -but 5e already risks sailing down Charybdis' throat with the character advancement railroad. Subclass at 3rd level and feats (especially OneD&D feats) both move at least a little further from that whirlpool. This is not a problem with subclasses. This is a problem with 5e (and TSR) design which subclass at third level only does a little to offset. We're on the same page about warlocks. For [I]non-divine casters[/I] in D&D we normally call these "Spells" (divine/druidic casters getting their entire spell list is something I've long found a Problem). And I've long been an advocate for "Pure martials" having a "Second Subclass" at level 10 or so to say how they keep up. Not Newbie Friendly. Which is what 5e focuses on. And "builds" are toxic for casual fans (besides, you can play the build-game better in a MOBA, a CRPG, or even a roguelite). I think subclasses are a decent compromise that focuses on accessibility. [/QUOTE]

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