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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Razuur" data-source="post: 122912" data-attributes="member: 1997">Well Thunder Son.  I respect your opinion entirely.  I also disagree with it entirely as well  That is the beauty of opinion and choice.  So as I rebut your comments know that I am not saying that you are wrong for thinking so, only know that I am defending work(s) that I love and giving you my opinions in return.Firstly Dragonlance.  I agree.  I read the thread.  As for it being "immature and childish", I disagree with the premise, as it  had a different purpose than your standard novel or series.  The original Dragonlance served the following purposes at the very least: create a series of novels + introduce readers to DnD by showing them what is possible + create a believeable game setting that complies with the AD&D rules + attach it to a series of adventures that could be run with DnD + make it accessible to possible new AD&D players of all ages.  Your typical fantasy series has none of that baggage, it is just trying to create a believeable world and chronicle unique experiences within it.  I agree with the poster in that thread that stated that Dragonlance revolutionized gaming at the time.  I believe it did.  It was the first to create a truly immersive setting that anyone who read the books could play.  I also agree that the advendures being connected to the game had never been done and was a good move.Now onto the other comments:On Martin:  (SPOILERS)I am a fan of the new direction of Fantasy storytelling that Mr. Martin is exploring so deftly.  I love the scope, the depth, and the events.  I believe the character are very realistic because humanity is morally ambiguous.  Since I believe that humanity is such, these novels come alive and feel real.  I am not approaching them from 20th century mentality.  I am approaching it from the cultures mentality (a perspective I had to learn well reading Chung Kuo by David Wingrove, and based on your post I suggest you NOT read that series because you will not like them).Morally bankrupt is a 20th century modern perspective that simply was not present in a true middle age society.  The nobles played their power games, and 99% of the peasants were swept up, soldiered, conquered or slaughtered.  If you read any histoy you know that is the way it was.  This style of fantasy shows us that perspective.  if it is something you are uncomfortable with, you are right, you shouldn't read it.  Good and Bad are perspectives in this work, and my belief system.  From your post it seems that you beleive that there is a hard right and wrong and good and bad.  That is okay, I respect that belief, but these books do not use that reality paradigm.As for the characters, that supports this perspective.Bran could be called good by our standards, I suppose.  Rickon is just a spoilt child with spoilt child sensibilities.  Hodor is mentally challenged and I cannot label him good or bad, but merely loyal like a dog but not as reliable.  As for Selmy, valiant men have served and died by depots throughout history.  Life events change us, the death of his king changed him.  Catelyn Stark?  i never EVER thought she was a sweet lady.  She was a noble woman with a good head for the game of thrones, but she would have done anything... ANYTHING if it benefited her kids.  Her ill treatment of Jon showed her true colors long ago.  She was never good, merely smart and cunning.   Theon is a perfect example of a morally ambiguos character.  he was Robbs freind, but he always had an arrogance to him.  What did one expect him to do and be when he returned home to such a welcome.  He was a Greyjoy, NOT a Stark.  As for jon... he is 15 or 16 for gods sake.  I don't know about you, but I was doing some reckless things in life at that age and beyond.  I finally didn't start getting my act together until 25.  He is ahead of the game to me.  The death of Qhorin was neccessary and ORDERED by him, otherwise they were both dead.  His giving into his hormones and need for love and affection (especially with a distant cold mother figure like Catelyn) is more than understandable, espicially considering his age.  In the end he returned to what was true within him.  Arya?  She is eight and ahs had her whole life yanked from her.  She has seen freinds father, and brothers perish around her.  Ya ever wonder why the way she is?  And Eddard was noble, true, but we don't know everything about his life.  he did rise up against his own king....  And Tyrion, how much abuse and rejection can a man take before he breaks....?Next language.  yes those authors you mentioned do not use such language.  They also write High fantasy, which you like.  Since this sub genre of fantasy is more dark fantasy, it uses realistic terminology.  People swear.  People swear everywhere all of the time.  Another touch that made it real to me.  I love Eddings, and I haven't read weis and hickman for years, or brooks.  I recently read some Salvatore and really did not care for him for a variety of reasons I won't go into unless asked because this topic isn't about him.  I too love Eddings and High fantasy, it has its place in my heart.  Darker gritty fantasy has another that I love too.  I do not believe that they can be mutually exclusive.  I can love Martin AND Jorden AND Eddings.  I have and do.  My Feelings for Goodkind went from like to dislike.  For a number of reasons, that if you wnat more detail on I will go into.  I have only read the first 2 books, however.  Richard annoys me though.  For being such a huge Hero, he sure is a whus!  Plus there are a variety of other issues.I have not read Steven Erikson's Malazan series, I am in America and I don't think they are here yet.  But I think I will like them based on the comparison to Martin.  I understand why you do not.As for George R. R. Martin's use of profanity, sexual situations and bloody scenes... they add to the realism that I love.  I understand why you don't enjoy them though becuse you are a fan of high fantasy, and such things are fopa.  In the end a guard dying in either high or dark fantasy is till the end of a life, and I don't beleive it is so simple.  The focus on these items, profanity, sex, and the like make it a realistic fantasy setting.  You prefer more escapist high fantasy.  I understand why it doesn't appeal.Wheel of Time:  I recently finished the second book, and so far I never wnat it to end.  I will keep reading despite someones warnings because I am intrigued by the story.Dragonlance, Shannara... they have very nostalgic places in my memory, but recent rereads have left me unsatisfied.  That does not mean I think them crap, my tastes are different.  I LOVED the Shannara DRAGON insert.  I will probably buy the Dragonlance setting book, because my memories of it are glorious - it is a cool setting.  My reading tastes are just different now.  That does not make them bad, in fact it makes them really good, because they introduced a young boy/man to the wonders of fantasy and I am still there years later.  How many movies live up to viewing them years later.  Star Wars anyone?  The original is getting pretty dated, but we still love it for the nostalgic reasons.  If feel the same for dragonlance, shannara, etc.I am currently reading the first Memory sorrow and thorn and am not sure what I think, I am only 200 pages in.The only thing about your post that irked me was actually that there was no spoiler warning.  i just recently finished the thrid ASoIaF book and I would have been crushed pretty early on due to the spoilers if I was not upt to date.Thanks for your opinions.  I add mine respectively.Razuur</blockquote>

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