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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Argyle King" data-source="post: 6239348" data-attributes="member: 58416">In my case, I didn't find 4E to be coherent at all.  The mechanics seemed (in my opinion) to be very much at odds with the picture that the fluff and background information was trying to paint in both the preview books and the early 4E books.  Mechanically, Grappling/Grab was so poor of an option that it was a better tactic against many monsters to stay inside of their mouths than to use actions escaping; it was so poor that I found myself wishing for the 3E Grappling rules back.  If we're talking coherent just from a mechanical perspective; from a pure game perspective, and only from the perspective of PCs being measured against each other, I might agree with you, but not completely.  It was (and still is) possible to break 4E; it's just done differently than it was in 3rd.  Still, if we're talking strictly rules and nothing else, I would agree that 4E is a coherently designed game.  If we're talking coherent for a rpg overall, I disagree.  In the beginning, back when I felt as negative as I did toward 4E, I found myself wondering why the group I was with didn't just play Descent and add some roleplaying.Now, I am someone who enjoys 4E.  As I've said other places, I've learned the strengths and weaknesses of the game, and I've learned what it's meant for and what it isn't meant for.  I've also added other rpgs to my library, so, when I want something outside of 4E's scope, I have games available to me to have fun with instead of getting frustrated trying to make 4E into something it isn't.  That allows, for me, for 4E to have its own place and be enjoyed for what it is.  I do find that I enjoy the more balanced approach to 4E classes; even the worst ones are close enough to the same general ballpark to still possibly be fun.  In contrast, I'm not sure if I could ever play a non-caster in 3E again -even if I wanted to.  I'm not someone who is heavily tied to balance, but I think at least some balance is necessary.  I don't mind playing a character who isn't the best or most optimized, but I shouldn't constantly feel like I'm tricked by a game into playing DC's Robin or Marvel's Maggot while everyone else is getting to play the part of Superman, Hulk, and Thor.  There are times when 3E (and even Pathfinder) can feel that way.  A lot of options are presented as being valid options, but, in truth, they really aren't... at least not beyond a certain level.</blockquote>

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