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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KidSnide" data-source="post: 5699318" data-attributes="member: 54710">A fair point.  Consistent design always sounds good in the abstract, but is harder to do in practice.  Let me give an example:In this hypothetical, let's say that classes (i.e. the combat part) don't provide skills or utility powers.  (I'm not saying this is a good idea, I'm just trying to create a hypothetical that is close enough to existing 4e mechanics that we could discuss it.)  Also, for the purpose of this discussion, I'm going to use the word "theme" to refer to the non-combat part of the character.  In this example, the rogue class wouldn't provide skills or utility powers but would instead allow the character to choose any martial theme.  Let's consider a hypothetical "Sneak" theme, a martial example of the infiltrator role.  Similarly, a warlock could choose any arcane or shadow theme.  Let's consider a hypothetical "Shadow" theme, an arcane example of the infiltrator role.The Sneak theme might grant Stealth and Thievery training, plus training in any two of Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Perception or Streetwise, plus any two skills of the character's choice.  The Sneak theme might also come utility powers such as Fleeting Ghost, Persistent Tail or Shadow Stride, plus others (that are more like martial rituals) for disguise, creating a secret campsite and providing a bonus on a group stealth check.  The Shadow theme might grant Arcana, Stealth and Thievery, plus training in Bluff, History or Perception, plus any two skills of the character's choice.  The Shadow theme might have more magical utility powers like Float, Invisibility along with abilities that are currently in the game as illusion rituals.Continuing along this path, you could imagine a primal infiltrator theme focused on self-transformation that granted Nature, Stealth and Perception, plus a choice of Acrobatics, Athletics and Thievery and any other two skills.  The powers of that theme might start with cat eyes (low-light vision) and cat feet (stealth bonus) and progress into transformation into a small bird.I'm not sure there would be a separate divine or psionic infiltrator, but I would allow an Avenger or Monk to access Sneak.  To get a little wacky, you could also imagine a second arcane infiltrator theme based around transformation where the character uses a lot of Knock, Passwall and Fade into Stone style magic.  Also, characters who want multiple themes could presumably spend a feat to gain access to the utility powers of a second theme.-KS</blockquote>

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