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What if 5e had 2 types of roles
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<blockquote data-quote="mneme" data-source="post: 5700007" data-attributes="member: 59248"><p>Yep. Rapier and gloved empty hand is an effective form, but worse than rapier + buckler or rapier + dagger--or even cloak. (also, rapiers were mostly developed after firearms and social change made armor much less common). Arming sword vs Katana is a better comparison, if a silly one.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed. Probably the fencing match I was in that most pointed out the use of intelligence in the form was when a very unconventional, but skilled fencer came to my classical salle's our first tournament. He went untouched throughout his first few matches, as his style wasn't one we were trained to deal with and was throwing people off--including people substantially better than I was. But I watched his form and got something of the pattern of it, so in our first exchange I was able to step in, catch his coupe with a parry-riposte and score the first touch against him in the tournament (he -was- better than I was, though, so he scored the next 4 against me, but that doesn't invalidate the point).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, mostly. Perception (Wis) becomes more important with more participants -- but so does group strategy (which comes down to Int again). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, this is key. </p><p></p><p>For background, here -- I fenced in the SCA for about 13 years, and for three of them, also studied classical (foil and sabre) and historical (rapier, smallsword) weapons in a private salle with Ramon Martinez, classical fencing master of arms. So I've got a smattering of experience across western forms, significant experience of melee from the sca, and some deep (though not as much as I'd like) training with someone who really knows what he's doing.</p><p></p><p>One of the big difference between Maestro Ramon's teaching and what you get in a high school is that the olympic style, because of the timeframe in question, concentrates on athleticism first [note that here I act on what I've read; I've never been in a modern fencing environment for enough time to absorb information], deeper understanding of the art at best second; the point is to train students to win tournaments, not to start training that will produce effective fencers in 10 years and (maybe) masters in 25.</p><p></p><p>I can get behind speed being strength (though I'd think of it as a cross between strength and dexterity). However, in D&D terms I'd put it with Dex -- given the split between athletics (running speed, climbing) and acrobatics (quick but still full body movement), I'd say it's more acrobatic speed than athletic, even though the distinction is artificial.</p><p></p><p>Precision is clearly dex. Well, Dex and perception (but mostly wisdom). OTOH, really it's mostly training. Train well enough and it's just not that hard to get very precise.</p><p></p><p>Now, regarding timing -- if anyting, I'd put it somewhere in the wisdom/Intelligence spectrum (consider the math/music connection), but yeah, it's hard to categorize. It's by far the most important thing in 1v1 melee fighting, and really the best correlation one can do to D&D is level.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mneme, post: 5700007, member: 59248"] Yep. Rapier and gloved empty hand is an effective form, but worse than rapier + buckler or rapier + dagger--or even cloak. (also, rapiers were mostly developed after firearms and social change made armor much less common). Arming sword vs Katana is a better comparison, if a silly one. Indeed. Probably the fencing match I was in that most pointed out the use of intelligence in the form was when a very unconventional, but skilled fencer came to my classical salle's our first tournament. He went untouched throughout his first few matches, as his style wasn't one we were trained to deal with and was throwing people off--including people substantially better than I was. But I watched his form and got something of the pattern of it, so in our first exchange I was able to step in, catch his coupe with a parry-riposte and score the first touch against him in the tournament (he -was- better than I was, though, so he scored the next 4 against me, but that doesn't invalidate the point). Well, mostly. Perception (Wis) becomes more important with more participants -- but so does group strategy (which comes down to Int again). Yes, this is key. For background, here -- I fenced in the SCA for about 13 years, and for three of them, also studied classical (foil and sabre) and historical (rapier, smallsword) weapons in a private salle with Ramon Martinez, classical fencing master of arms. So I've got a smattering of experience across western forms, significant experience of melee from the sca, and some deep (though not as much as I'd like) training with someone who really knows what he's doing. One of the big difference between Maestro Ramon's teaching and what you get in a high school is that the olympic style, because of the timeframe in question, concentrates on athleticism first [note that here I act on what I've read; I've never been in a modern fencing environment for enough time to absorb information], deeper understanding of the art at best second; the point is to train students to win tournaments, not to start training that will produce effective fencers in 10 years and (maybe) masters in 25. I can get behind speed being strength (though I'd think of it as a cross between strength and dexterity). However, in D&D terms I'd put it with Dex -- given the split between athletics (running speed, climbing) and acrobatics (quick but still full body movement), I'd say it's more acrobatic speed than athletic, even though the distinction is artificial. Precision is clearly dex. Well, Dex and perception (but mostly wisdom). OTOH, really it's mostly training. Train well enough and it's just not that hard to get very precise. Now, regarding timing -- if anyting, I'd put it somewhere in the wisdom/Intelligence spectrum (consider the math/music connection), but yeah, it's hard to categorize. It's by far the most important thing in 1v1 melee fighting, and really the best correlation one can do to D&D is level. [/QUOTE]
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