Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What if 5e had 2 types of roles
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5700187" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Sure, and that is LEVEL. Pure and simple a couple levels trumps a good bit of STR or DEX or whatever other attack stat. If I'm 4th level and you're 1st level I have a +2 WRT to you, all other things being equal. You may be stronger, but your 18 STR is still counterbalanced by my 14 STR and 3 level advantage. And because I'll have more hit points chances are I'll win a statistically significant fraction of the time (obviously I'm the more experience guy here <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />. </p><p></p><p>As for what I said trumping STR or DEX, no, it won't. STR and DEX (after experience) will likely be the most important things, because the whole 30 second fight is going to go by real fast and basically you're going to be hitting harder and dodging better (etc) than the other guys in the fight. You just don't have time to strategize and outthink the other guy once ranks close and the melee is on.</p><p></p><p>This is also why the Roman Legion worked. Yes, it had to do with being a militia, but the same thing can be seen in martial arts training. You study things like kata (terminology differs but the concept is always the same). The idea is to be able to function when you have no time to think, when stopping to think for a split second is the difference between life and death. Same with the Legion, make it all instinct. Make it all so ingrained that even in the midst of the most horrifying and terrible experience imaginable to man some part of your brain has it burned in som deep you just do it. The US Army (and every other army in history that was ever successful) did the same thing. I remember an observation made by Napoleon about the Prussians when he beat them. He said he looked out across the field of battle and there was some Prussian rifle battalion, each man dead in ranks, and he could see 3 or 4 men still standing in their place in line, loading and firing their muskets in perfect drill. Without that level of discipline you simply can't conquer the chaos of battle.</p><p></p><p>The whole D&D conceit of the party members coming up with strategies and trying different things and cooperating to carry off fancy tactics is just largely pure fantasy. This is part of why you can't really say this stat or that stat does this or that, you're just not looking at a situation that relates to the real world. PCs are so supernaturally cool and collected and their approach to a fight is so vastly more cerebral than anything in real life that it really can't be related. </p><p></p><p>So, I think my point is that basing melee effectiveness largely on the most clearly salient stats, STR and DEX mostly, does make sense in the context of the kind of action that is attempting to be depicted. The fitter and more experienced and maybe better equipped group will mostly succeed, assuming they don't make some massive fundamental mistake right off the bat, but that's really what TPKs are made of <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>On a more practical level I think it is just too obscure and complex to try to factor in 27 different subtle attributes of success. Using STR for heavy weapons and DEX for light ones gives a good feel, is manageable, and is sensible to the average player. It isn't meant to be super accurate. It is meant to be fun and playable. Allowing players to use their weapon choice as a way to determine what stat they use, so they can get some build flexibility, seems like a pretty decent way to go to me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5700187, member: 82106"] Sure, and that is LEVEL. Pure and simple a couple levels trumps a good bit of STR or DEX or whatever other attack stat. If I'm 4th level and you're 1st level I have a +2 WRT to you, all other things being equal. You may be stronger, but your 18 STR is still counterbalanced by my 14 STR and 3 level advantage. And because I'll have more hit points chances are I'll win a statistically significant fraction of the time (obviously I'm the more experience guy here ;). As for what I said trumping STR or DEX, no, it won't. STR and DEX (after experience) will likely be the most important things, because the whole 30 second fight is going to go by real fast and basically you're going to be hitting harder and dodging better (etc) than the other guys in the fight. You just don't have time to strategize and outthink the other guy once ranks close and the melee is on. This is also why the Roman Legion worked. Yes, it had to do with being a militia, but the same thing can be seen in martial arts training. You study things like kata (terminology differs but the concept is always the same). The idea is to be able to function when you have no time to think, when stopping to think for a split second is the difference between life and death. Same with the Legion, make it all instinct. Make it all so ingrained that even in the midst of the most horrifying and terrible experience imaginable to man some part of your brain has it burned in som deep you just do it. The US Army (and every other army in history that was ever successful) did the same thing. I remember an observation made by Napoleon about the Prussians when he beat them. He said he looked out across the field of battle and there was some Prussian rifle battalion, each man dead in ranks, and he could see 3 or 4 men still standing in their place in line, loading and firing their muskets in perfect drill. Without that level of discipline you simply can't conquer the chaos of battle. The whole D&D conceit of the party members coming up with strategies and trying different things and cooperating to carry off fancy tactics is just largely pure fantasy. This is part of why you can't really say this stat or that stat does this or that, you're just not looking at a situation that relates to the real world. PCs are so supernaturally cool and collected and their approach to a fight is so vastly more cerebral than anything in real life that it really can't be related. So, I think my point is that basing melee effectiveness largely on the most clearly salient stats, STR and DEX mostly, does make sense in the context of the kind of action that is attempting to be depicted. The fitter and more experienced and maybe better equipped group will mostly succeed, assuming they don't make some massive fundamental mistake right off the bat, but that's really what TPKs are made of ;) On a more practical level I think it is just too obscure and complex to try to factor in 27 different subtle attributes of success. Using STR for heavy weapons and DEX for light ones gives a good feel, is manageable, and is sensible to the average player. It isn't meant to be super accurate. It is meant to be fun and playable. Allowing players to use their weapon choice as a way to determine what stat they use, so they can get some build flexibility, seems like a pretty decent way to go to me. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What if 5e had 2 types of roles
Top