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What if 5e had 2 types of roles
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<blockquote data-quote="KidSnide" data-source="post: 5701208" data-attributes="member: 54710"><p>This is just a sketch of a design. (I would call it "ex recto"... you know... "outside the box"...). I'm not sure the roles are right and basically every part of the design needs to be filled in and refined -- and that would just get to a first draft. But I figure it would provide a slightly more concrete straw man for this discussion.</p><p></p><p>I had been imagining four roles: Face, Infiltrator, Explorer and Lore, each of which would have multiple themes. Much like classes, each theme would be provide both a primary and a secondary role. For example, a Sneak (the theme that goes with a traditional thief concept) would have a primary role of Infiltrator and a secondary role of Explorer or Face, all with the martial power source.</p><p></p><p>Themes would provide a minimum set of fixed skills (and, presumably, some optional skills) and access to a significant number of utility powers (assuming we're staying close to the 4e character building philosophy). As a separate matter, I am inclined to think that rituals and martial practices should be organized into sets of abilities that would be selected through feats. Themes should also grant some of these ritual abilities.</p><p></p><p>Face Themes would typically focus on Bluff, Diplomacy, History, Intimidate, Insight and/or Streetwise and would shine in NPC persuasion challenges. Face themes would support other types of challenges through the secondary role and would commonly have leader-like abilities that help other characters succeed. Face themes can also provide effective support for infiltration and lore by grifting or identifying knowledgeable contacts. Explorer challenges can also involve face obstacles (i.e. difficult natives or magical constructs amenable to persuasion) or they can be supported by arranging for help (extra camels, a better map, etc...).</p><p></p><p>Infiltrator Themes would typically focus on Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Stealth, Streetwise and/or Thievery and would shine in infiltration challenges. Infiltrator themes would support other types of challenges through the secondary role, through scouting (i.e. exploration challenges), stealing valued property (for persuasion challenges), or retrieving critical information (for lore challenges). Infiltrators can also be very helpful with physical obstacles (like cliffs) that show up in explorer challenges.</p><p></p><p>Explorer Themes would typically focus on Athletics, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception, Thievery and/or Streetwise and would shine in travel and exploration challenges. Explorer themes would support other types of challenges through the secondary role, by noticing important information (infiltration, persuasion, and lore challenges all apply), providing cover for an infiltration from the outside, or engineering solutions to physical problems.</p><p></p><p>Lore Themes would typically focus on Arcana, Heal, History, Insight, Nature, Religion and/or Streetwise. Many Lore themes would have access to research or divination powers to provide useful clues or domain knowledge applicable to many different forms of challenge, as well as secondary role. Other Lore themes might have "Brains" theme abilities to provide game benefits to their schemes (like Intelligent heroes from d20 Modern).</p><p></p><p></p><p>To continue with the Sneak example:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> A sneak would gain Stealth and Thievery and would have access to utility powers that look something like the Stealth-themed rogue powers, plus what are now Stealth and Thievery skill powers. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> A Sneak also has a theme ability (think "class ability", but for theme) something like "That Was Nothing" - an encounter immediate reaction to failing a Stealth roll that allows the sneak to re-roll the check if they forgo their action. (That description isn't quite right, but the idea is that the guards look around and decide they didn't hear anything after all.) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> The Sneak theme might come in two varieties, one with Explorer as a secondary role and one with Face as a secondary role. The Explorer version gains perception and gets some kind of trap disarm benefit. The Face version gains bluff and gets some kind of benefit for disguise. (Maybe there is a Lore variety that gets Streetwise?)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> The Sneak also gets 1 or 2 skills from a Sneak list (Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Perception, Streetwise) plus 1 or 2 skills from the full list. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> At higher levels the Sneak might gain a martial practice (or maybe a utility power) to help a group of no more than 10 people make a stealth role using the Sneaks role with some penalty. (There is an assassin utility power that does something like this.)</li> </ul><p></p><p>A couple general points:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Most themes would come with a theme ability that provides a re-roll on the theme's core skill when it is used in a theme-appropriate manner.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">All (or nearly all) themes would come with the ability to choose a small number of skills for the complete list. I think this is just a good idea for character customization.</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I see this issue, but tends to disagree. Face is too limiting for a theme (there should be more), but persuasion is useful a wide variety of encounters.</p><p></p><p>Hogging is a separate issue. It's important to design negotiation encounters so that having the most diplomatic character do all the talking isn't usually the best strategy. But that's at least as much a question of encounter design as it is of character design. (It would also be a great thread.)</p><p></p><p>-KS</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KidSnide, post: 5701208, member: 54710"] This is just a sketch of a design. (I would call it "ex recto"... you know... "outside the box"...). I'm not sure the roles are right and basically every part of the design needs to be filled in and refined -- and that would just get to a first draft. But I figure it would provide a slightly more concrete straw man for this discussion. I had been imagining four roles: Face, Infiltrator, Explorer and Lore, each of which would have multiple themes. Much like classes, each theme would be provide both a primary and a secondary role. For example, a Sneak (the theme that goes with a traditional thief concept) would have a primary role of Infiltrator and a secondary role of Explorer or Face, all with the martial power source. Themes would provide a minimum set of fixed skills (and, presumably, some optional skills) and access to a significant number of utility powers (assuming we're staying close to the 4e character building philosophy). As a separate matter, I am inclined to think that rituals and martial practices should be organized into sets of abilities that would be selected through feats. Themes should also grant some of these ritual abilities. Face Themes would typically focus on Bluff, Diplomacy, History, Intimidate, Insight and/or Streetwise and would shine in NPC persuasion challenges. Face themes would support other types of challenges through the secondary role and would commonly have leader-like abilities that help other characters succeed. Face themes can also provide effective support for infiltration and lore by grifting or identifying knowledgeable contacts. Explorer challenges can also involve face obstacles (i.e. difficult natives or magical constructs amenable to persuasion) or they can be supported by arranging for help (extra camels, a better map, etc...). Infiltrator Themes would typically focus on Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Stealth, Streetwise and/or Thievery and would shine in infiltration challenges. Infiltrator themes would support other types of challenges through the secondary role, through scouting (i.e. exploration challenges), stealing valued property (for persuasion challenges), or retrieving critical information (for lore challenges). Infiltrators can also be very helpful with physical obstacles (like cliffs) that show up in explorer challenges. Explorer Themes would typically focus on Athletics, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception, Thievery and/or Streetwise and would shine in travel and exploration challenges. Explorer themes would support other types of challenges through the secondary role, by noticing important information (infiltration, persuasion, and lore challenges all apply), providing cover for an infiltration from the outside, or engineering solutions to physical problems. Lore Themes would typically focus on Arcana, Heal, History, Insight, Nature, Religion and/or Streetwise. Many Lore themes would have access to research or divination powers to provide useful clues or domain knowledge applicable to many different forms of challenge, as well as secondary role. Other Lore themes might have "Brains" theme abilities to provide game benefits to their schemes (like Intelligent heroes from d20 Modern). To continue with the Sneak example: [LIST] [*] A sneak would gain Stealth and Thievery and would have access to utility powers that look something like the Stealth-themed rogue powers, plus what are now Stealth and Thievery skill powers. [*] A Sneak also has a theme ability (think "class ability", but for theme) something like "That Was Nothing" - an encounter immediate reaction to failing a Stealth roll that allows the sneak to re-roll the check if they forgo their action. (That description isn't quite right, but the idea is that the guards look around and decide they didn't hear anything after all.) [*] The Sneak theme might come in two varieties, one with Explorer as a secondary role and one with Face as a secondary role. The Explorer version gains perception and gets some kind of trap disarm benefit. The Face version gains bluff and gets some kind of benefit for disguise. (Maybe there is a Lore variety that gets Streetwise?) [*] The Sneak also gets 1 or 2 skills from a Sneak list (Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Perception, Streetwise) plus 1 or 2 skills from the full list. [*] At higher levels the Sneak might gain a martial practice (or maybe a utility power) to help a group of no more than 10 people make a stealth role using the Sneaks role with some penalty. (There is an assassin utility power that does something like this.) [/LIST] A couple general points: [LIST] [*]Most themes would come with a theme ability that provides a re-roll on the theme's core skill when it is used in a theme-appropriate manner. [*]All (or nearly all) themes would come with the ability to choose a small number of skills for the complete list. I think this is just a good idea for character customization.[/LIST] I see this issue, but tends to disagree. Face is too limiting for a theme (there should be more), but persuasion is useful a wide variety of encounters. Hogging is a separate issue. It's important to design negotiation encounters so that having the most diplomatic character do all the talking isn't usually the best strategy. But that's at least as much a question of encounter design as it is of character design. (It would also be a great thread.) -KS [/QUOTE]
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