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What if 5e had 2 types of roles
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5702473" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I'm thinking that non-combat roles would be supported by non-combat-oriented class features and utility powers, not just skills. Yeah. They also don't think "I want a character that takes it on the chin so that others can get in the killing blow" they think "I want a total badass invincible warrior who can take on anyone! woot! No, I want a wizard who can make reality his bitch!" And, then, they eventually simmer down and look at what kind of balanced choices the game gives them.</p><p></p><p>A non-combat role might be another such balanced choice, or, like source and combat roles, it could be part of the definition/design of a given class. For instance, a Fighter could be a Martial Defender Doer, a Warlock an Arcane Striker Instigator, and so forth... or, a Fighter could be a Defender, and a Doer, Intigator or Concilliator, depending on build... </p><p></p><p>:shrug:</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ideally, every role should be present in every challenge...</p><p></p><p>However, a challenge is achieving a goal, and how a goal is achieved does not have to be tightly defined in designing the challenge. If the party 'needs to persuade someone' isn't necessarily a goal, it's a means to a goal - that goal might be getting an item, preventing a war, passing through territory, or a host of other things that might be done by persuading someone, or might be done in other ways.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's Dungeons and Dragons, not Demesnes & Duchesses. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> Certainly, given the current system, you'd look for ways to get each characters social skill - Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Insight, Streetwise, maybe History, involved. And that wouldn't always be easy. Thus the advantage of having defined, broadly aplicable roles.</p><p></p><p>For instance, using the roles I mentioned above...</p><p></p><p>Thinker - shares information with the party about the person they're trying to persuade, what he may need/want/fear that would bear upon the course of action the party is trying to push.</p><p></p><p>Instigator - tries to trick the target into the desired course of action through misdirection or subterfuge, or force his hand by bringing a rival into the picture, or offers a bribe. </p><p></p><p>Doer - offers a concrete service or other quid pro quo in return for the desired couse of action. Negotiates details when it looks like an agreement is getting close.</p><p></p><p>Conciliator - presents the party's case diplomatically, performs 'damage control' if the instigator's tricks blow up in his face, realizes with further progress is impossible and withdraws the party gracefully, to try something else later.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Mechanically how do they do that? I haven't really thought it through yet. They might all be using diplomacy, or none, or a skill like diplomacy might not exist in the system. Some roles might be able to alter the basic plot line by fiat - an instigator might be able to dig up an enemy or rival the DM never thought to include, for instance, or a concilliator might have a feature that gives him undefined 'favors owed' that he can collect on in the course of play. It might just all be skills and skill bonuses and re-rolls. :shrug:</p><p></p><p>That might not be a bad step. The skill system still reads a lot like old spells. Skills do very specific in-world things, they try to simulate what a PC is capable of, rather than accomplish defineable (and balanceable) in-game goals.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5702473, member: 996"] I'm thinking that non-combat roles would be supported by non-combat-oriented class features and utility powers, not just skills. Yeah. They also don't think "I want a character that takes it on the chin so that others can get in the killing blow" they think "I want a total badass invincible warrior who can take on anyone! woot! No, I want a wizard who can make reality his bitch!" And, then, they eventually simmer down and look at what kind of balanced choices the game gives them. A non-combat role might be another such balanced choice, or, like source and combat roles, it could be part of the definition/design of a given class. For instance, a Fighter could be a Martial Defender Doer, a Warlock an Arcane Striker Instigator, and so forth... or, a Fighter could be a Defender, and a Doer, Intigator or Concilliator, depending on build... :shrug: Ideally, every role should be present in every challenge... However, a challenge is achieving a goal, and how a goal is achieved does not have to be tightly defined in designing the challenge. If the party 'needs to persuade someone' isn't necessarily a goal, it's a means to a goal - that goal might be getting an item, preventing a war, passing through territory, or a host of other things that might be done by persuading someone, or might be done in other ways. It's Dungeons and Dragons, not Demesnes & Duchesses. ;) Certainly, given the current system, you'd look for ways to get each characters social skill - Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Insight, Streetwise, maybe History, involved. And that wouldn't always be easy. Thus the advantage of having defined, broadly aplicable roles. For instance, using the roles I mentioned above... Thinker - shares information with the party about the person they're trying to persuade, what he may need/want/fear that would bear upon the course of action the party is trying to push. Instigator - tries to trick the target into the desired course of action through misdirection or subterfuge, or force his hand by bringing a rival into the picture, or offers a bribe. Doer - offers a concrete service or other quid pro quo in return for the desired couse of action. Negotiates details when it looks like an agreement is getting close. Conciliator - presents the party's case diplomatically, performs 'damage control' if the instigator's tricks blow up in his face, realizes with further progress is impossible and withdraws the party gracefully, to try something else later. Mechanically how do they do that? I haven't really thought it through yet. They might all be using diplomacy, or none, or a skill like diplomacy might not exist in the system. Some roles might be able to alter the basic plot line by fiat - an instigator might be able to dig up an enemy or rival the DM never thought to include, for instance, or a concilliator might have a feature that gives him undefined 'favors owed' that he can collect on in the course of play. It might just all be skills and skill bonuses and re-rolls. :shrug: That might not be a bad step. The skill system still reads a lot like old spells. Skills do very specific in-world things, they try to simulate what a PC is capable of, rather than accomplish defineable (and balanceable) in-game goals. [/QUOTE]
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