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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8726694" data-attributes="member: 22779">Again, though, the issue isn't really about the specific mechanics of illusions.&nbsp; It's that the mechanics of illusions in D&amp;D are... well... not great.&nbsp; Which resulted in DM's largely avoiding them.&nbsp; It's kinda the same issue with psionics really.&nbsp; The AD&amp;D psionics rules were a mess.&nbsp; Whether it's the half baked rules in the 1e PHB or the 2ed Complete Psionics, it was just far, far more headache than it was worth.&nbsp; Could you make them work?&nbsp; Sure.&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; But, was it worth it to make them work?&nbsp; Well?&nbsp; The jury is a bit out on that one and I think a lot of DM's (myself included) are very gunshy about having psionic rules that are run alongside magic rules.&nbsp; We have lots of experience making the magic rules work and it's not always easy.&nbsp; But, add in the complication of an entirely separate rule set for psionics that interacts and intersects with magic and it can be overwhelming.Again, the issue isn't really that the psionics are too powerful or too weak.&nbsp; It's that they are too much of a PITA.&nbsp; So, DM's (again I'm including myself here) just blanket throw up their hands and don't want anything to do with them.Rolling this all the way back to my original point though and it's not really something that becomes apparent in theory crafting and only looking at the mechanics.&nbsp; On paper, illusion magic is fine.&nbsp; On paper, psionics looks perfectly fine.&nbsp; But, when the rubber hits the road and you're trying to figure out how, exactly, the game works when you've got a psionic character trying to use telepathy on an illusion, what happens?&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Note, that's a tongue in cheek example and I don't want or expect an answer.&nbsp; The point is, you can make all these &quot;Well, the game is unbalanced&quot; arguments until you're blue in the face.&nbsp; The thing is, most players really, REALLY don't care if Bob does 5 more points of damage per round than they do.&nbsp; So long as everyone is in roughly the same ballpark, most players are pretty happy.&nbsp; Fighters between 5th and 10th level deal about 25 points of damage per round on average.&nbsp; At least, that's my experience across a lot of tracked rounds.&nbsp; So, so long as everyone is averaging somewhere in that ballpark, everyone is pretty happy.&nbsp; Higher level?&nbsp; I don't know.&nbsp; I'm just starting to play a higher level game for the first time.&nbsp; YAY!&nbsp; But, I'm pretty sure that the characters are going to remain pretty close to on par most of the time.&nbsp; No one is absolutely hogging spotlight, none of the characters have been rendered redundant.&nbsp; I'm currently in a fight with a Chasme, half the party has failed their saves and are sleeping and two of the characters are one hit away from straight up death (Chasme kill PC's at 0 HP, most of the time anyway).&nbsp; Really not seeing any problems with balance between the classes.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8726694, member: 22779"] Again, though, the issue isn't really about the specific mechanics of illusions. It's that the mechanics of illusions in D&D are... well... not great. Which resulted in DM's largely avoiding them. It's kinda the same issue with psionics really. The AD&D psionics rules were a mess. Whether it's the half baked rules in the 1e PHB or the 2ed Complete Psionics, it was just far, far more headache than it was worth. Could you make them work? Sure. Absolutely. But, was it worth it to make them work? Well? The jury is a bit out on that one and I think a lot of DM's (myself included) are very gunshy about having psionic rules that are run alongside magic rules. We have lots of experience making the magic rules work and it's not always easy. But, add in the complication of an entirely separate rule set for psionics that interacts and intersects with magic and it can be overwhelming. Again, the issue isn't really that the psionics are too powerful or too weak. It's that they are too much of a PITA. So, DM's (again I'm including myself here) just blanket throw up their hands and don't want anything to do with them. Rolling this all the way back to my original point though and it's not really something that becomes apparent in theory crafting and only looking at the mechanics. On paper, illusion magic is fine. On paper, psionics looks perfectly fine. But, when the rubber hits the road and you're trying to figure out how, exactly, the game works when you've got a psionic character trying to use telepathy on an illusion, what happens? :p Note, that's a tongue in cheek example and I don't want or expect an answer. The point is, you can make all these "Well, the game is unbalanced" arguments until you're blue in the face. The thing is, most players really, REALLY don't care if Bob does 5 more points of damage per round than they do. So long as everyone is in roughly the same ballpark, most players are pretty happy. Fighters between 5th and 10th level deal about 25 points of damage per round on average. At least, that's my experience across a lot of tracked rounds. So, so long as everyone is averaging somewhere in that ballpark, everyone is pretty happy. Higher level? I don't know. I'm just starting to play a higher level game for the first time. YAY! But, I'm pretty sure that the characters are going to remain pretty close to on par most of the time. No one is absolutely hogging spotlight, none of the characters have been rendered redundant. I'm currently in a fight with a Chasme, half the party has failed their saves and are sleeping and two of the characters are one hit away from straight up death (Chasme kill PC's at 0 HP, most of the time anyway). Really not seeing any problems with balance between the classes. [/QUOTE]

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