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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shardstone" data-source="post: 8731728" data-attributes="member: 6807784">It can be so hard to discuss 5th Edition when so many people exaggerate every complaint and try to make it seem like everyone is insane or completely making things up when instead they are sharing basic facts.D&D 5E starting out as a Apology Edition is a fact. They did all those surveys specifically to see what the then-crowd wanted, which was a game less obviously like 4E and more like a mix of 3E and 2E. This is not up for debate, and I'm tired of pretending that it is. The fact that 5E turned out as a fun and enjoyable game that exploded on the market is not diminished by the fact that it was an Apology Edition. Nor is the belief that WotC is popular, and thus the best game on the market, anywhere close to reality. That isn't how markets work, that isn't how games work, its some kind of weird Capitalist fantasy with no basis in reality.5E did amazing at first because it appealed to pretty much anyone who would like 2 or 3E. Then it did even better once it started getting marketed to a wider audience. Then it did EVEN BETTER once it started catering material to the new audience. There are other elements involved here, but NONE OF THIS MEANS THAT 5E CANNOT BE A BETTER GAME.Likewise, the argument that "You can't please everyone" and "There is no perfect TTRPG" is a HUGE cop out. Improving the game isn't about pleasing everyone, nor is it about making a perfect game, its about seeing how D&D can evolve, testing things out, and either rolling them back or going further with the idea. The fact that people have to consistently put an * on every single crticism that says "But I still enjoy 5E and don't think it is terrible" just so people wil llisten to the criticsms instead of sweeping them aside is so INSANE to me. How many times do we have to say that "We like 5E, we're just interested in seeing what it would be like if it was like this" before [USER=6801845]@Oofta[/USER] and co finally stop saying "But the game can't be perfect!" ???Does no one else seriously not see how absurd it is that every thread with any criticism is constantly having issues between one side of members saying "Its the best selling edition of D&D, why change it?" and "We'd be interested in seeing a D&D with these changes, even if they're rolled back" ? And that we constantly have to debate the fact that because D&D is the best selling TTRPG that it isn't automatically the best freaking game to ever grace this Earth?I know this is probably thread capping, but it is just so hard for me to engage with this thread when almost every other post is someone basically saying that all criticism is junk and that we all need to shut up and suck up the slop of whatever WotC puts out without ever once wanting change.I can even acknowledge that some people are way more extreme in their opinions then I think is fair for 5E, but I'd rather people be critical so we can actually have a discussion other then having to pretend like 5E literally cannot, should not, and will not change at all in the future, because making $$$$ means that its a golden goose that never in a thousand years can be touched due to its inherent divinity.That being said, I agree that the 2024 edition will be more of the same for 5E, but with moderate changes that push us further  from the crowd that first bought the game in 2014, and closer to the crowd who currently buys the game en masse. This, to me, is good. I'd like to be able to run D&D without having to make up random distances in theater of the mind, or have backgrounds that give feats that better mechanically represent certain character concepts. I probably won't like everything, and I probably won't agree with every opinion, but I can tell you one thing: I sure as hell won't be telling people that their criticisms are a waste of time like so many of ya'll like to do!!</blockquote>

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