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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7507408" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I'm kind of surprised with how many people are saying Expertise has caused no problems. I know that my experience is somewhat unusual (3 rouges, a ranger and a druid isn't typical party comp) but the issue I ran into seems kind of inevitable to a degree. Stealth with expertise. By level 11 when you get reliable talent expertise in Stealth means your result is likely a minimum of 23 (10+8+5) and could easily get a 28. Sure, the Beholder boss might be able to see the Rogue, but the Elite Drow Guards who are posted throughout the compound, they get a +4 which means that unless the rogue rolls their minimum and the drow roll a natural 20, there is no way for them to spot the rogue. And, while that may seem like a good way for the rogue to show off their skills, I've found something else entirely happen. We just end up skipping it. The rogue says "Stealth" and I say "You succeed" because the odds are so far tilted in the rogues favor that I don't see the point in wasting everyone's time. We know the result so no roll happens, and while my players enjoyed laughing at my frustration (with that ungodly +10 Pass Without a Trace making results of 35 to 40 not uncommon) I think they also started to get a bit frustrated themselves because where there is no challenge there is no interesting story. And by taking expertise they are indicating to me that they want to be challenged in this regard, but how am I supposed to challenge a lockpicker who can effortlessly hit a DC 25. DC 30 is meant to be saved for the most difficult challenges possible (that aren't just auto-failures) and I need them to start popping up at mid-levels? How many god-tiered locks are even supposed to exist in the world? And at least those are plausible, challenging someone who has advantage, pass without trace, reliable talent and a mod of +15 in stealth is just a fools errand. And that is one magic item and one spell that lasts an hour. Does it wreck the game? I guess not, but it doesn't seem to make the game very enjoyable either.</blockquote>

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