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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7507627" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I'm wondering what you mean by it will be too weak for other skills. Do you have skills which require a minimum result of 23 to be useful?I mean expertise in tolls is already relatively useless unless you and the DM are clever, since rolling for tools is nearly nonexistant. And, I don't know about you, but the result between a 20 and a 30 on a deception check or persuasion check is pretty hard to spot, because I don't run with diplomancers like I heard about in 3.x. Knowledge checks? I use them quite a bit, but almost no one ever takes expertise in them since they aren't typical rogue things.I mean, where are we going to see this become &quot;too weak&quot; if we reigned it in?Which by the way, I've had no problems with expertise at low levels. +4 to a skill hasn't ever caused an issue. It is when we start getting into +8,+10, and +12 that I start scratching my head and wondering what it is I could do It is a problem because players want to be challenged. If a player picks intuition as a skill, but I never have them roll intuition and just tell them the secrets the NPCs are keeping or if they were keeping secrets then what was the point of the players choice? They aren't getting a chance to show that they are skilled, because they aren't getting a chance to roll. Instead they are just succeeding, and because we are moving along and they just do it, it doesn't get spotlight time and it doesn't seem impressive.It's all perception I suppose. But I had players not even want to bother with stealth anymore because they knew they would succeed, it was an automatic assumption that they could just sneak up on anybody, so it wasn't fun anymore, because there was no risk for failure. So we stopped doing it, unless there was a mechanical benefit for the assassin</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7507627, member: 6801228"] I'm wondering what you mean by it will be too weak for other skills. Do you have skills which require a minimum result of 23 to be useful? I mean expertise in tolls is already relatively useless unless you and the DM are clever, since rolling for tools is nearly nonexistant. And, I don't know about you, but the result between a 20 and a 30 on a deception check or persuasion check is pretty hard to spot, because I don't run with diplomancers like I heard about in 3.x. Knowledge checks? I use them quite a bit, but almost no one ever takes expertise in them since they aren't typical rogue things. I mean, where are we going to see this become "too weak" if we reigned it in? Which by the way, I've had no problems with expertise at low levels. +4 to a skill hasn't ever caused an issue. It is when we start getting into +8,+10, and +12 that I start scratching my head and wondering what it is I could do It is a problem because players want to be challenged. If a player picks intuition as a skill, but I never have them roll intuition and just tell them the secrets the NPCs are keeping or if they were keeping secrets then what was the point of the players choice? They aren't getting a chance to show that they are skilled, because they aren't getting a chance to roll. Instead they are just succeeding, and because we are moving along and they just do it, it doesn't get spotlight time and it doesn't seem impressive. It's all perception I suppose. But I had players not even want to bother with stealth anymore because they knew they would succeed, it was an automatic assumption that they could just sneak up on anybody, so it wasn't fun anymore, because there was no risk for failure. So we stopped doing it, unless there was a mechanical benefit for the assassin [/QUOTE]

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