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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7508399" data-attributes="member: 16814">This is a pretty specious argument that relies on the belief that anyone not playing the way you prefer is out to punish players.&nbsp; It's specious in that any spell that would obviate a non-expertised skill pretty much obviated expertised skills already.&nbsp; Although, I'm curious, which skills do you think are completely obviated by which spells that aren't already completely obviated by spells regardless of expertise?&nbsp; The second part, where you assume bad intentions, is a common assumption these days of anyone that disagrees with you must be a horrible person.&nbsp; You should try and do better.`My main problem with expertise (and with reliable talent on top) is that the system makes absolutely no mention that the recommended advice for running the game becomes obsolete at an unexpectedly early point.&nbsp; Those mechanics could be fine, if the system actually was designed to accommodate them and pushed into a new regime of challenges.&nbsp; But, it doesn't.&nbsp; It still recommends DCs in the 10-20 range as the go-to, and rightly so for everything except expertised or reliable skills -- it's a good benchmark for skills in general.&nbsp; But expertise throws that out the window by trivializing the advice for running the game and requires a DM to both understand the issue as a paradigm change AND be capable of adapting to continue to run a fun game despite that regime change.&nbsp; That's a heavy burden to place on the DM for a system artifact.&nbsp; Hence why I've responded to the claims that a &quot;good&quot; DM can solve this because it's not a problem/not a system problem.&nbsp; I wonder, though, why does it take a good DM to overcome something that isn't a problem?But, back to your complaint, if you really need to have huge numerical bonuses to shine against casters, that speaks to another system problem and doesn't defend expertise.&nbsp; I love fighters and rogues.&nbsp; I hate how expertise distorts the game.&nbsp; There are no spells that actually let you find and disarm traps, or pick pockets, or convince someone to your side longterm, so, I don't understand where you're coming from by saying that without expertise rogues and fighters don't have a place in the game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7508399, member: 16814"] This is a pretty specious argument that relies on the belief that anyone not playing the way you prefer is out to punish players. It's specious in that any spell that would obviate a non-expertised skill pretty much obviated expertised skills already. Although, I'm curious, which skills do you think are completely obviated by which spells that aren't already completely obviated by spells regardless of expertise? The second part, where you assume bad intentions, is a common assumption these days of anyone that disagrees with you must be a horrible person. You should try and do better.` My main problem with expertise (and with reliable talent on top) is that the system makes absolutely no mention that the recommended advice for running the game becomes obsolete at an unexpectedly early point. Those mechanics could be fine, if the system actually was designed to accommodate them and pushed into a new regime of challenges. But, it doesn't. It still recommends DCs in the 10-20 range as the go-to, and rightly so for everything except expertised or reliable skills -- it's a good benchmark for skills in general. But expertise throws that out the window by trivializing the advice for running the game and requires a DM to both understand the issue as a paradigm change AND be capable of adapting to continue to run a fun game despite that regime change. That's a heavy burden to place on the DM for a system artifact. Hence why I've responded to the claims that a "good" DM can solve this because it's not a problem/not a system problem. I wonder, though, why does it take a good DM to overcome something that isn't a problem? But, back to your complaint, if you really need to have huge numerical bonuses to shine against casters, that speaks to another system problem and doesn't defend expertise. I love fighters and rogues. I hate how expertise distorts the game. There are no spells that actually let you find and disarm traps, or pick pockets, or convince someone to your side longterm, so, I don't understand where you're coming from by saying that without expertise rogues and fighters don't have a place in the game. [/QUOTE]

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