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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7510801" data-attributes="member: 6919838">&quot;loosened but you sprain/strain... &quot;PHB&quot; If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success — the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM.&quot;Now just in case you missed it... making the role &quot;overcomes the challenge at hand&quot;Not making the role means &quot;makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM.&quot;So that is *not* saying the setback comes with overcoming the challenge at hand like a successful roll would (your free but bruised)... but that it makes progress towards that objective and a setback and so... once again since it was apparently missed...&quot;&quot;loosened but you sprain/strain... &quot;is that clearer? A little? How many more &quot;progress toward&quot; and setback failures before we get to the equivalent as a successful roll? that would clearly depend on the manacles and the Gm buit i tend to default to three unless I have a compelling reason to deviate from my norm.As for your position that if one uses the second of two options from the straight up standard definition of failed skill check from the primary book and sections on skill check means a failure of the system in some way... well, IDK why is the first otion &quot;makes no progress&quot; not a failure in the system if the second option in the same sentence is? Nevermind, you can have your own definition for &quot;does not work&quot; which includes using the second half of a sentence instead of the first and that is just fine.Me, i would expect to definitely see some problems in tasks if a Gm chose to throw out some of the most basic rules for them - but thats just me.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7510801, member: 6919838"] "loosened but you sprain/strain... " PHB " If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success — the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM." Now just in case you missed it... making the role "overcomes the challenge at hand" Not making the role means "makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM." So that is *not* saying the setback comes with overcoming the challenge at hand like a successful roll would (your free but bruised)... but that it makes progress towards that objective and a setback and so... once again since it was apparently missed... ""[B]loosened [/B]but you sprain/strain... " is that clearer? A little? How many more "progress toward" and setback failures before we get to the equivalent as a successful roll? that would clearly depend on the manacles and the Gm buit i tend to default to three unless I have a compelling reason to deviate from my norm. As for your position that if one uses the second of two options from the straight up standard definition of failed skill check from the primary book and sections on skill check means a failure of the system in some way... well, IDK why is the first otion "makes no progress" not a failure in the system if the second option in the same sentence is? Nevermind, you can have your own definition for "does not work" which includes using the second half of a sentence instead of the first and that is just fine. Me, i would expect to definitely see some problems in tasks if a Gm chose to throw out some of the most basic rules for them - but thats just me. [/QUOTE]

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