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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6107088" data-attributes="member: 4937">Ok, like what?But having certain abilities generally isolated to one race is not evidence that they aren't based on a class.&nbsp; It's just evidence that in that setting, only members of that race can enter into the class.&nbsp; For example, in 1e only humans could be Paladins.&nbsp; In my current game, only Idreth can be Akashic, and only characters with fey blood can take the Feyborn class.&nbsp; Likewise, having qualities improve with age is not evidence that they aren't based on class, and arguably its contrary evidence.I don't follow your logic at all.&nbsp; The contrary is logical.&nbsp; If the youngest, least powerful, least experienced elves also exhibited the abilities, then it would be evidence of race rather than class.&nbsp;&nbsp; Unfortunately, we have very limited interaction with anything but the elite of the elvish people - Galadriel (her dad is the elven equivalent of Adam), Elrond (after the death of Gil-Galad, right to claim the title of High King fell to him, though he would not claim it), Celeborn, Thranduil, Legolas (he's a Prince among the wood elves), Glorfindel (former champion of Gondolin, and a guy that slays Balrogs single handedly), etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; Even interactions with a character like Gildor, indicate he's a chief among his people.&nbsp; That characters like Galadriel, who we must presume in D&amp;D terms to be high level, most exemplify those abilities seems to me to indicate that class and level are the strongest predictor of those abilities.Granted, what we see of the elves indicate that they aren't necessarily D&amp;D elves - they are taller than humans, they have higher Con than humans, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; Tolkien elves are clearly not balanced with ordinary humans and could be a +LA 1 or 2 race, though its probably possible to assume that the disparity is simply due to being on average having 3 more levels than a human.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6107088, member: 4937"] Ok, like what? But having certain abilities generally isolated to one race is not evidence that they aren't based on a class. It's just evidence that in that setting, only members of that race can enter into the class. For example, in 1e only humans could be Paladins. In my current game, only Idreth can be Akashic, and only characters with fey blood can take the Feyborn class. Likewise, having qualities improve with age is not evidence that they aren't based on class, and arguably its contrary evidence. I don't follow your logic at all. The contrary is logical. If the youngest, least powerful, least experienced elves also exhibited the abilities, then it would be evidence of race rather than class. Unfortunately, we have very limited interaction with anything but the elite of the elvish people - Galadriel (her dad is the elven equivalent of Adam), Elrond (after the death of Gil-Galad, right to claim the title of High King fell to him, though he would not claim it), Celeborn, Thranduil, Legolas (he's a Prince among the wood elves), Glorfindel (former champion of Gondolin, and a guy that slays Balrogs single handedly), etc. Even interactions with a character like Gildor, indicate he's a chief among his people. That characters like Galadriel, who we must presume in D&D terms to be high level, most exemplify those abilities seems to me to indicate that class and level are the strongest predictor of those abilities. Granted, what we see of the elves indicate that they aren't necessarily D&D elves - they are taller than humans, they have higher Con than humans, etc. Tolkien elves are clearly not balanced with ordinary humans and could be a +LA 1 or 2 race, though its probably possible to assume that the disparity is simply due to being on average having 3 more levels than a human. [/QUOTE]

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