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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Amphytrion" data-source="post: 9700694" data-attributes="member: 7046181">I think you are getting caught up on a distinction that both Fizban's and the DMG delineate about how humanoids and dragons see Bahamut and Tiamat. Dragons themselves aren't religious by nature, and see both as monarchs. This does not stop Humanoids from considering Bahamut and Tiamat gods, as the book also makes explicit. Both are (a) worshipped, (b) able to grant spells, and (c) ageless and immortal.You seem to think that there is an additional requirement that gods must come from the Outer Planes, but that is not so. There is nothing in "Gods and Other Powers" within the DMG that dictates this -- in fact, Greyhawk's table of deities of deities disproves it wholesale (e.g. Beory is a greater goddess, and yet she is a planet in the Material Plane). Bahamut and Tiamat may be distinct from the gods that hail from the Outer Planes, but that doesn't mean they aren't themselves gods. The sentence from Fizban's you quote ("that hail from the Outer Planes") is a restrictive clause and simply qualifies the gods being referred to in that particular line (referred later as "gods of the Outer Planes", instead of simply "gods").Here's more text from the Lore Glossary has to say about Bahamut and Tiamat:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">For Bahamut: "In the Dragonlance setting, where he is called Paladine (PAL-a-deen), he is the greatest of the gods of good. On other worlds, he is revered as a god of justice and nobility and is favored by Paladins."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">For Tiamat: "In the Dragonlance setting, where she is known as Takhisis (ta-KEE-sis), she is the greatest of the gods of evil. On many worlds, she is known as a god of greed, wealth, and vengeance."</li> </ul>This is almost word-for-word content from Fizban's ("Gods and Religion" section), which also refers to both as gods multiple times. Here are a few more instances:[SPOILER="Excerpts"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Chapter 6 includes [...] aspects of the dragon gods" from the first page.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Various creation myths told on different worlds echo some of the themes and notions of this poem, particularly when they describe dragons or draconic gods being involved in creating the world." from the "The First World" section.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"I revere and draw my power from one of the dragon gods—most likely Bahamut or Tiamat, but possibly Sardior" from the "Heroes of the Dragon" section;</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"To some dragons, this closing couplet of "Elegy for the First World" is [...] a call to recreate the original world of the dragon gods", from the "Inheritors of the First World" section.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Bahamut has made his home in the Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia and is often numbered among the gods of that plane", from Aspect of Bahamut.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"a powerful follower of Bahamut who makes a tremendous sacrifice [...] might convince the god to send aid to the world in the form of a divine aspect", from Aspect of Bahamut.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Dragonborn champions advance the cause of their dragon god among draconic creatures and other folk alike.", from Dragonborn Champions.</li> </ul>The book explicitly traces that other greatwyrms are not gods ("Dragonsight" section), and could have done the same to Bahamut and Tiamat if it so wished.[/SPOILER]The most recent release of 2024, Dragon Delves, does the same when referring to Bahamut in the "Creating a Campaign" section: "...the companions of the dragon god Bahamut, which is the patron's true identity"A separate issue, but Tenebrous is a Vestige, a remnant of a dead god, lying trapped in an amber sarcophagus according to Curse of Strahd, which also makes him a Dark Power (confirmed by name in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft). We do know, however, that he was/is a god. The category of Vestiges was defined once more in the new DMG ("Vestiges are deities who have lost nearly all their worshipers").</blockquote>

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