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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 1400937" data-attributes="member: 8835">It sounds like a lot of people are complaining about the art styles or game styles.  I think some of that misses what the original thread was.  Namely, what's missing in 3e, that could be added.So I've got all the books from AD&D, AD&D2e to D&D3e.  I can say the writing improved with each.  It was easier to start learning from 2e, than with the 1e book I had gotten at the same time due to a shipping mistake.Here's an inventory of what each ruleset had (+/- a few features)1E had:6 stats with special tablesLots of tablesrandom dungeon generator tablemore cartoony artsmall printcomplex armor tables (to figure out to-hit requirements)static thief abilities (your level determined your scores)Then came the expansion, what was it called (one of the few I don't own)...It added skills and THAC0 if I recalldifferent XP tables per classfuzzy rules on how much XP to give (XP for gold found...)even EGG disagreed on how much XP to give (see his old article in the strategic review on Dragon Archive CD)racial level limitsracial class limitspercentile strength (which was non-standard with other stats)2e had:6 stats with special tablesweapon proficiencies so you had to choose your favorite weaponsracial level limitsracial class limitsnon-weapon proficiencies (very few social skill ones)thief skills were custom per PCpercentile strength (which was non-standard with other stats)Kits from the Complete Book of XYZSpecialty Priests (remember the Druid is one)THAC0 which was WAAAAAAY better than 1e's silly armor class tables (mathematically the same)2.5e had:custom class and race abilities (similar to feats, but different)skill points (minor change to non-weapon profs)2.5e PCs were more powerful than 2e PCssub-attributes (getting you a higher plus, at a price)3e had:consolidated XP system with a planned progression for encountersno level limitsno class limitsPrestige Classes (kits anyone?)thief skills use the same skill system as the otherslots of social Skills (diplomacy, bluff)Feats (which sort of balanced the build-a-class idea from 2.5e)Magic users get more spells than previous editionsattributes all use same tablemore complex combat using Feats (AoO for instance)Much of 3e's goodness is that things were homogenized.  XP is handled more consistently.  Encounter difficulties are more formulaic, making it easier to balance an encounter.  Skills are handled consistently.I liked 2.5's sub-attributes, but 3e's +1 every four levels covers what I really wanted, better stats.The power level in 3e went up.  A 3e PC has better features, heck my converted 2e multiclass got much better even though I lost levels in the process.  This supported people's desire to not have a sucky PC.  Sure, some people think having a bad stat makes them role-play.  However, I'd rather role-play a recovering alcoholic fighter with an 18 strength than a recovering alcoholic with average stats.  And that is what WotC was covering I believe.As far as adventure styles, I suspect that's your GMs fault.  Why are GMs rolling everything, just because Diplomacy, Bluff, Detect Motive exist?  Make the player role-play it.  Never let them see the die rolls.  If they don't role-play it, don't let them succeed.  The social Skills (there's a reason I listed them) are a crutch for people who aren't comfortable with role-playing yet.  I'd be tempted to house-rule them off the character sheet, and let the players burn SP on more valuable skills.Just because your PC kicks arse, doesn't mean you can't role-play.  If I keep putting monsters in front of your barbarian, then he's going to hack them down.  If I bring you a real problem to solve, you'll have to role-play out of it.  Or you'll die when you cut one too many NPC down.Certainly I miss being able to wield 2 swords without a to-hit penalty, but that's more of the game design quirk than a requirement for the game.Miss the old special clerics?  Well make some.  Druids are just one kind of special cleric.  Clerics are another.  Make some more if you need them and rule that each "class" worships a specific god.  Problem solved.PCs advancing too fast, give them less XPToo much magic, deduct 10-20 from your percentile rollsMonsters too complex?  Ironically enough, the stat bonuses are figured into their AC and attack/damage values.  You only need the attribute scores when they're doing something wierd (like old AD&D).  I admit, keeping track of feats and skills for monsters was challenging in the beginning, but that's why I always use a computer to write my adventures (even in 2e, I had full stat-blocks for my monsters).Don't like the art?  Well you can always paste some art you like over the original 3e art?  Or just buy some prints, frame them, and hang them up in your gaming area.The old level limits had been removed in my house rules for 2e for 10+ years.  Not a problem.  Heck, we dropped the memorization rules and wizards and clerics could cast like Sorcerers.  Mages still needed to own a book....Like 2E before it, 3e is a product of the way many of us were trying to play anyway.  Go re-read the preface by Jeff Grubb in the 2e PH.Anything I missed?Janx</blockquote>

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