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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 9145386" data-attributes="member: 6795602">Fiction - Wizard Casts Hold Person at you -&gt; Fictional proposition does he effect you -&gt; the probability of the roll matches the in fiction probability based on the fighters Wisdom Save vs the Wizards save DC (ability to resist wisdom effects vs ability to land spell effects).&nbsp; As long as you accept that the chance of landing is a fictional thing then the saving throw mechanic precisely represents that fictional chance.IMO, come and get it is about as adiegetic as possible.&nbsp; How many times do I need to repeat that a mechanic can cause a fictional event and still be adiegetic.&nbsp; Thus bringing up that it does cause a fictional event isn't proof that it's diegetic.Same as above...I get where you are coming from but I disagree - not because you can't narrate it that way - but doing so leaves a wide open question as to why you need inspiration to try harder again.&nbsp; That's the part that reveals it to be adiegetic.It does - you just don't compare the events moment by moment.&nbsp; So of course some parts of the mechanic are diegetic.&nbsp; I don't think an RPG mechanic is ever going to get away from this, but by stopping when you find something that's diegetic, that prevents you from finding the moments that are not adiegetic.&nbsp; And yes - this is closely correlated with dissociated mechanics and also player authorial power.I think the issue is that a characters ability to resist can never be truly represented by tokens that get expended when you resist something.&nbsp; Similar for 4e martial powers and 5e battlemaster maneuvers.&nbsp; Hence the adiegetic nature.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 9145386, member: 6795602"] Fiction - Wizard Casts Hold Person at you -> Fictional proposition does he effect you -> the probability of the roll matches the in fiction probability based on the fighters Wisdom Save vs the Wizards save DC (ability to resist wisdom effects vs ability to land spell effects). As long as you accept that the chance of landing is a fictional thing then the saving throw mechanic precisely represents that fictional chance. IMO, come and get it is about as adiegetic as possible. How many times do I need to repeat that a mechanic can cause a fictional event and still be adiegetic. Thus bringing up that it does cause a fictional event isn't proof that it's diegetic. Same as above... I get where you are coming from but I disagree - not because you can't narrate it that way - but doing so leaves a wide open question as to why you need inspiration to try harder again. That's the part that reveals it to be adiegetic. It does - you just don't compare the events moment by moment. So of course some parts of the mechanic are diegetic. I don't think an RPG mechanic is ever going to get away from this, but by stopping when you find something that's diegetic, that prevents you from finding the moments that are not adiegetic. And yes - this is closely correlated with dissociated mechanics and also player authorial power. I think the issue is that a characters ability to resist can never be truly represented by tokens that get expended when you resist something. Similar for 4e martial powers and 5e battlemaster maneuvers. Hence the adiegetic nature. [/QUOTE]

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