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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9145459" data-attributes="member: 42582">But it can be truly represented by a WIS saving throw, and hence those are "diegetic"? That makes no sense to me. What makes a player rolling a die a part of the fiction, in a way that a player spending a token is not?There is no "fictional proposition" does he affect you?. In the fiction either the spell does or doesn't affect the character. The question "Does he affect you?" is one asked by the participants, in their capacities as audience and authors.I can't follow your analysis here. I don't see what bit of CaGI makes it adiegetic, whereas rolling a saving throw is diegetic. I don't see how the player exercising their will to spend a token is adiegetic vis-a-vis the character's will, but putting the outcome of the character's will to the test via a saving throw is diegetic.What if the fiction is one in which the gods have determined all outcomes in advance? Or even one in which, on this occasion, the gods have decided that the hero will resist? Does that mean that we can't roll the dice? Does that mean that a game in which dice are rolled is never one in which divine favour is exercised?I find the whole analysis just muddled.</blockquote>