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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3457002" data-attributes="member: 4937">In its post-modernist form, I'd tend to say that the assessment correct.&nbsp; Marx certainly seems to assumed that the dissolution of private property would have been empowering to people... however bizarre that concept may have sounded to 18th century Liberal proponents of the rights of man and may sound bizarre to post-20th century survivors of Stalinism.&nbsp; Anyway, the surviving modern form of the meme becomes tied up with the notion of public entitlements, and puts a high emphasis on there being no objective meaning but only constructed values (very Chaotic).&nbsp; I very much doubt whether any form of Marxism is stably Chaotic, as I think that it tends to gravitate to authoritarianism by putting effective control into the hands of a few, but wierd and wacky things are possible when dealing with philosophies.&nbsp; For example, considers those that identify themselves as 'anarco-socialists' who simultaneously hold that society is both present oppressor and potential savior.&nbsp; I can't say that I get it, but its certainly Chaotic to hold such paradoxical views.&nbsp; Personally, I've Monte Pythons take on this, &quot;We're part of an anarcho-syndicalist commune...&quot; Another thing to consider is that in mortal society, law/chaos philosophical declarations cannot be considered a good predictor of Authoritarianism.&nbsp; It's equally possible to have a Chaotic society which forms a cult of personality around a tyrant who rules absolutely and by whim, and to have a Lawful society which enshrines as its highest form of order the&nbsp; protection of the rights of the individual.&nbsp; It's an open question whether any such paradoxical systems are stable in the long run.&nbsp; For example, nation-states revolving around Cults of Personality tend to dissolve rapidly into anarchy as soon as the cult leader dies, or else they evolve something like a Monarchist tradition and gradually morph into a lawful society with the original tyrant in the role of Founder and Law Giver.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3457002, member: 4937"] In its post-modernist form, I'd tend to say that the assessment correct. Marx certainly seems to assumed that the dissolution of private property would have been empowering to people... however bizarre that concept may have sounded to 18th century Liberal proponents of the rights of man and may sound bizarre to post-20th century survivors of Stalinism. Anyway, the surviving modern form of the meme becomes tied up with the notion of public entitlements, and puts a high emphasis on there being no objective meaning but only constructed values (very Chaotic). I very much doubt whether any form of Marxism is stably Chaotic, as I think that it tends to gravitate to authoritarianism by putting effective control into the hands of a few, but wierd and wacky things are possible when dealing with philosophies. For example, considers those that identify themselves as 'anarco-socialists' who simultaneously hold that society is both present oppressor and potential savior. I can't say that I get it, but its certainly Chaotic to hold such paradoxical views. Personally, I've Monte Pythons take on this, "We're part of an anarcho-syndicalist commune..." Another thing to consider is that in mortal society, law/chaos philosophical declarations cannot be considered a good predictor of Authoritarianism. It's equally possible to have a Chaotic society which forms a cult of personality around a tyrant who rules absolutely and by whim, and to have a Lawful society which enshrines as its highest form of order the protection of the rights of the individual. It's an open question whether any such paradoxical systems are stable in the long run. For example, nation-states revolving around Cults of Personality tend to dissolve rapidly into anarchy as soon as the cult leader dies, or else they evolve something like a Monarchist tradition and gradually morph into a lawful society with the original tyrant in the role of Founder and Law Giver. [/QUOTE]

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