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What is a Social challenge, anyways?
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 8950004" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>[USER=6877472]@James Gasik[/USER] I'll answer for myself, and per my usual approach I'm slightly challenging the premise. Not because it's not a good question (e.g. Deities & Demagogues / Atlas Games had an entire "social combat" system like this), but because I think the question might be glossing over some helpful nuance...</p><p></p><p>IME there's no universal "combat challenge", no universal "exploration challenge", and no universal "social challenge." For example, 5e's combat is really focused on the small squad / typical party scale, but doesn't do well scaling down to 1-v-1 duels or up to mass combat...and if you want a running battle chase scene, you'll need to tweak the rules or make up new ones to get the desired effect. Similarly, a hex crawl has different rules/procedures than navigating a complex trap, and both vary substantially from table to table in how searching a room plays out.</p><p></p><p>The type of "social challenge" I have the most experience running is the negotiation, but other possible "social challenges" might include courtroom scenes, healing a mad wizard's mind, talking down an armed mob, or other examples. The best rules/guidelines approaches for <em>those </em>types of "social challenges" may be quite different from what I'm discussing below...</p><p></p><p>When I've run complicated multi-variable negotiation scenes – e.g. convincing an unfriendly dwarf lord to release both his dwarven hostages and captive crystal dragon, while avoiding offending him, and sussing out the monstrous traitor in his court – I created a series of 4 questions for the lord to ask of the PCs seeking an audience. Each question required an escalating number of "successes" (1 for the 1st, 2 for the 2nd, etc), and these "successes" might be accrued by clever roleplay appealing to some aspect of the lord's personality/beliefs, dramatic roleplay calling to mind past adventures that appealed to the lord, Charisma-based skill checks that made sense in the moment, Insight checks, certain lore checks, spells, calling upon NPC allies, certain class features, etc. Basically, it was just a structure to help me with my pacing & ensure the questions were ratcheting up the tension of the scene. Finally, I had some notes on a gradient of possible outcomes.</p><p></p><p>When I didn't think through it well, or I omitted a key detail in my notes that affected how I portrayed the NPC... then I would get brief moments of dissonance where it was evident the players had nothing else to contribute, but my tally sheet read something like "2 successful answers given out of 3 possible for question #3." In those cases, it was a learning process and I adapted on the fly.</p><p></p><p>Here's a concrete example from a one-shot conversion I ran a few months back...</p><p></p><p><strong>SWAYING DRULL - Negotiation Scene</strong></p><p>This scene involves 4 rounds, divided according to Drull's questions posed to PCs seeking an audience with him. PCs can gain a number successes = the current # of the question being posed; at that point or at a natural transition in conversation, Drull poses the next question. Tally total number of successes at end.</p><p></p><p>If PCs acquired the <em>Hammer of Vitroin</em>, at any time they may gift it to Drull to gain <strong>+1</strong></p><p></p><p>At the end of each question/answer round, Drull uses the Mass Detect Thoughts power of his <em>crystal throne </em>(DC 15 Wisdom save). If he senses any difference between what the PCs have said and their intent, they lose <strong>-1</strong></p><p></p><p>1st Q: <em>“Why should I trust my brothers' toadies sent to bring me back to take the knee? Maybe you're just more thieves, better dressed, but still thieves?”</em></p><p></p><p><strong>-2 </strong>PCs’ disguise or illusion revealed</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>DC 16 Persuasion appealing to his pride</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>DC 16 Deception that King is abdicating/dead</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>revealing truth that Ekrundson = Evenshield</p><p><strong>+1 </strong> well-reasoned argument</p><p></p><p>2nd Q: <em>“So hard to think… a cloud is on my mind…”</em></p><p></p><p><strong>-1 </strong>muddled strategy or talking over each other</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>DC 16 History check to remind him of his life</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>casting <em>calm emotions </em>or <em>dispel magic </em>on Drull</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>creating illusion of his brother to soothe him</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>recounting a vivid memory from Underduin</p><p></p><p>3rd Q: <em>“What have you done for my people?”</em></p><p></p><p><strong>-1 </strong>PCs destroyed any areas of Thunderdelve</p><p><strong>-1 </strong>PCs freed Glittershard</p><p><strong>-2 </strong>PCs killed any dwarves</p><p><strong>+2 </strong>destroying or driving off the derro</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>per dwarf's polymorph curse lifted</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>rebuilding an area of Thunderdelve</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>sharing the thunderstone vein Area 53/58</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>slaying the aballin oozemother</p><p></p><p>4th Q: <em>“What evidence have you?”</em></p><p><strong>-1 </strong>falsely concocting improbable or conflicting evidence</p><p><strong><strong>+2 </strong></strong>helping Drull see through the <em>illusory dragon</em></p><p><strong>+1 </strong>compelling a derro to reveal their plan</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>testimony from emissaries of slithering tracker</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>concocting plausible evidence matching other facts</p><p><strong>+1 </strong>etching of forgotten dragon fight mural</p><p></p><p><strong>9-10 successes: </strong>total success</p><p><strong>7-8 successes: </strong>success with complication</p><p><strong>5-6 successes: </strong>failure with silver lining</p><p><strong>4 or fewer successes: </strong>total failure</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 8950004, member: 20323"] [USER=6877472]@James Gasik[/USER] I'll answer for myself, and per my usual approach I'm slightly challenging the premise. Not because it's not a good question (e.g. Deities & Demagogues / Atlas Games had an entire "social combat" system like this), but because I think the question might be glossing over some helpful nuance... IME there's no universal "combat challenge", no universal "exploration challenge", and no universal "social challenge." For example, 5e's combat is really focused on the small squad / typical party scale, but doesn't do well scaling down to 1-v-1 duels or up to mass combat...and if you want a running battle chase scene, you'll need to tweak the rules or make up new ones to get the desired effect. Similarly, a hex crawl has different rules/procedures than navigating a complex trap, and both vary substantially from table to table in how searching a room plays out. The type of "social challenge" I have the most experience running is the negotiation, but other possible "social challenges" might include courtroom scenes, healing a mad wizard's mind, talking down an armed mob, or other examples. The best rules/guidelines approaches for [I]those [/I]types of "social challenges" may be quite different from what I'm discussing below... When I've run complicated multi-variable negotiation scenes – e.g. convincing an unfriendly dwarf lord to release both his dwarven hostages and captive crystal dragon, while avoiding offending him, and sussing out the monstrous traitor in his court – I created a series of 4 questions for the lord to ask of the PCs seeking an audience. Each question required an escalating number of "successes" (1 for the 1st, 2 for the 2nd, etc), and these "successes" might be accrued by clever roleplay appealing to some aspect of the lord's personality/beliefs, dramatic roleplay calling to mind past adventures that appealed to the lord, Charisma-based skill checks that made sense in the moment, Insight checks, certain lore checks, spells, calling upon NPC allies, certain class features, etc. Basically, it was just a structure to help me with my pacing & ensure the questions were ratcheting up the tension of the scene. Finally, I had some notes on a gradient of possible outcomes. When I didn't think through it well, or I omitted a key detail in my notes that affected how I portrayed the NPC... then I would get brief moments of dissonance where it was evident the players had nothing else to contribute, but my tally sheet read something like "2 successful answers given out of 3 possible for question #3." In those cases, it was a learning process and I adapted on the fly. Here's a concrete example from a one-shot conversion I ran a few months back... [B]SWAYING DRULL - Negotiation Scene[/B] This scene involves 4 rounds, divided according to Drull's questions posed to PCs seeking an audience with him. PCs can gain a number successes = the current # of the question being posed; at that point or at a natural transition in conversation, Drull poses the next question. Tally total number of successes at end. If PCs acquired the [I]Hammer of Vitroin[/I], at any time they may gift it to Drull to gain [B]+1[/B] At the end of each question/answer round, Drull uses the Mass Detect Thoughts power of his [I]crystal throne [/I](DC 15 Wisdom save). If he senses any difference between what the PCs have said and their intent, they lose [B]-1[/B] 1st Q: [I]“Why should I trust my brothers' toadies sent to bring me back to take the knee? Maybe you're just more thieves, better dressed, but still thieves?”[/I] [B]-2 [/B]PCs’ disguise or illusion revealed [B]+1 [/B]DC 16 Persuasion appealing to his pride [B]+1 [/B]DC 16 Deception that King is abdicating/dead [B]+1 [/B]revealing truth that Ekrundson = Evenshield [B]+1 [/B] well-reasoned argument 2nd Q: [I]“So hard to think… a cloud is on my mind…”[/I] [B]-1 [/B]muddled strategy or talking over each other [B]+1 [/B]DC 16 History check to remind him of his life [B]+1 [/B]casting [I]calm emotions [/I]or [I]dispel magic [/I]on Drull [B]+1 [/B]creating illusion of his brother to soothe him [B]+1 [/B]recounting a vivid memory from Underduin 3rd Q: [I]“What have you done for my people?”[/I] [B]-1 [/B]PCs destroyed any areas of Thunderdelve [B]-1 [/B]PCs freed Glittershard [B]-2 [/B]PCs killed any dwarves [B]+2 [/B]destroying or driving off the derro [B]+1 [/B]per dwarf's polymorph curse lifted [B]+1 [/B]rebuilding an area of Thunderdelve [B]+1 [/B]sharing the thunderstone vein Area 53/58 [B]+1 [/B]slaying the aballin oozemother 4th Q: [I]“What evidence have you?”[/I] [B]-1 [/B]falsely concocting improbable or conflicting evidence [B][B]+2 [/B][/B]helping Drull see through the [I]illusory dragon[/I] [B]+1 [/B]compelling a derro to reveal their plan [B]+1 [/B]testimony from emissaries of slithering tracker [B]+1 [/B]concocting plausible evidence matching other facts [B]+1 [/B]etching of forgotten dragon fight mural [B]9-10 successes: [/B]total success [B]7-8 successes: [/B]success with complication [B]5-6 successes: [/B]failure with silver lining [B]4 or fewer successes: [/B]total failure [/QUOTE]
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