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Message: <blockquote data-quote="M_Natas" data-source="post: 8965098" data-attributes="member: 7025918">Usually, the Players need to trust, that the DM fairly determines and adjucate stuff (no matter if it one or 20 dice rolls). If the players don't think their DM can do this, they shouldn't play on his table. And if you think no DM can do that, you better play a computer game.That is what I'm saying the whole time. The disconnect is the problem, thats why the DC needs to change according to the approach. If yoo insult the Shopkeeper the DC increases and maybe even a dice check becomes meaningless, because you can't roll a 40 to persuade him. The disconnect exists, because the action declaration "I want to get a discount" and the outcome, how the action looks like, so the actual thing the character is saying, come usually before any dice are rolled as opposed to combat or other ability checks. Because the Problem is, when you are having a dialogue, the action is already complete. With "Hey stupid Shopkeeper, I'm the hero of this city, give me a discount!" you declared your intention and also described the complete action on how the character is doing it.In comparison: "I will climb the wall" is not complete. The action is not finished and usually the players are not describing from start to finish how they climb the wall. That's why it doesn't interrupt or create a disconnect when there is a roll between declaration and description of the outcome, of how the declared action will look like.Are you doing that on the table? Several dice rolls just to get the shop keeper to give you a discount?Because that feels like overkill. Also than it is not a conversation anymore. It becomes social combat. That kills any momentum and would make dialogue slow down to a crawl, like combat. Unless I missunderstand what you are trying to say. The complexity of a system needs to adress the importance of the thing they are trying to do.Getting a discount or jumping over the puddle shouldn't take several dice rolls and hours on the table.Convincing the King to give you an army or breaking into a mansion should.</blockquote>

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