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What is a Social challenge, anyways?
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<blockquote data-quote="Swarmkeeper" data-source="post: 8965260" data-attributes="member: 6921763"><p>I'm not sure what you mean by "accurate" here - it seems you are implying the Player can't accurately describe their own PC's actions, which I find odd in the context of my experience. Of course the Player can accurately describe what their PC is trying to do. The DM needn't mess with that. It's the <em>outcome</em> of those actions that is uncertain (i.e. not "quite accurate"). </p><p></p><p>Again, in 5e, the Player signals their goal and approach and the DM determines if it works. The DM narrates the outcome of the actions, the environment and/or attitudes of the NPCs are described by the DM as altered to some extent, and we're back to the Player declaring what they want their PC to do next. Narratively control of the PC, however brief, need not occur to describe an outcome.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Great - although this really seems to have turned the social interaction into a combat piece but we can go with it - the goal is clearly stated (intimidate the guy) and the approach is as well (by punching him). The player doesn't necessarily know this is going to work - or maybe they have a good sense it will because they've previously learned this guy is conflict averse or whatever. The DM decides if the outcome is uncertain and if there is a meaningful consequence for failure - if yes to both, a roll is called.</p><p></p><p></p><p>A decent example of a meaningful consequence for failure.</p><p></p><p></p><p>And it does in 5e when the Players fulfill their role of fully describing what they want their PCs to do. In combat, what the PC explicitly wants to do is often so obvious (i.e. "hurt the bad guy") that it is not stated out loud before the action declaration and roll. In exploration and social interaction, however, without a clear goal and approach, the DM is left with truly nothing to adjudicate. I mean, it could be obvious what the PC is trying to achieve but better for a DM to ask the player "what are you hoping to accomplish by doing X" rather than assume the intent/goal. It's a collaborative game, after all, and each person at the table needs to fulfill their role for the play loop to really work well.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The DM can declare any outcome they feel makes sense, of course. However, I prefer that the DM be transparent with their stakes ahead of time so the Players can make informed decisions for their PCs. Before the roll, at our table as I've mentioned before, the DM lets a Player know what could happen (specifically or vaguely depending on the situation) on a success and what could happen on a failure. The DM can add flare to the outcome accordingly after the roll. The Player does not describe outcomes in 5e except when the DM deliberately cedes that to them on occasion, for example on a particular killing blow.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Swarmkeeper, post: 8965260, member: 6921763"] I'm not sure what you mean by "accurate" here - it seems you are implying the Player can't accurately describe their own PC's actions, which I find odd in the context of my experience. Of course the Player can accurately describe what their PC is trying to do. The DM needn't mess with that. It's the [I]outcome[/I] of those actions that is uncertain (i.e. not "quite accurate"). Again, in 5e, the Player signals their goal and approach and the DM determines if it works. The DM narrates the outcome of the actions, the environment and/or attitudes of the NPCs are described by the DM as altered to some extent, and we're back to the Player declaring what they want their PC to do next. Narratively control of the PC, however brief, need not occur to describe an outcome. Great - although this really seems to have turned the social interaction into a combat piece but we can go with it - the goal is clearly stated (intimidate the guy) and the approach is as well (by punching him). The player doesn't necessarily know this is going to work - or maybe they have a good sense it will because they've previously learned this guy is conflict averse or whatever. The DM decides if the outcome is uncertain and if there is a meaningful consequence for failure - if yes to both, a roll is called. A decent example of a meaningful consequence for failure. And it does in 5e when the Players fulfill their role of fully describing what they want their PCs to do. In combat, what the PC explicitly wants to do is often so obvious (i.e. "hurt the bad guy") that it is not stated out loud before the action declaration and roll. In exploration and social interaction, however, without a clear goal and approach, the DM is left with truly nothing to adjudicate. I mean, it could be obvious what the PC is trying to achieve but better for a DM to ask the player "what are you hoping to accomplish by doing X" rather than assume the intent/goal. It's a collaborative game, after all, and each person at the table needs to fulfill their role for the play loop to really work well. The DM can declare any outcome they feel makes sense, of course. However, I prefer that the DM be transparent with their stakes ahead of time so the Players can make informed decisions for their PCs. Before the roll, at our table as I've mentioned before, the DM lets a Player know what could happen (specifically or vaguely depending on the situation) on a success and what could happen on a failure. The DM can add flare to the outcome accordingly after the roll. The Player does not describe outcomes in 5e except when the DM deliberately cedes that to them on occasion, for example on a particular killing blow. [/QUOTE]
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