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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7732343" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Instead of evaluating the events of the game world and interacting with them as they come (eg evidence that your brother, who is your hero, may either be (a) fallen to some degree or (b) in danger/dead), a player evaluates outcomes of action resolution on merits of &quot;degree of narrative causality&quot; and considers them &quot;contrived.&quot;&nbsp; Player becomes upset.I don't see how that isn't metagaming (and nonsensical metagaming at that given that the premise of play is likely to engage with such things and also &gt; below).Your position on how things operate in the real world is irrelevant.&nbsp; The reality is, the overwhelming majority of our world's populace currently and has historically operated under the premise that &quot;narrative causality&quot; (metaphysical underpinnings and divine providence/organization of the universe) are fundamental to their existence.&nbsp; And (I think we can agree!) they have infinitely less reasons to believe so as folks do in D&amp;D's implied setting and cosmology!&nbsp; Consequently, folks walking around actively disbelieving in &quot;narrative causality&quot; (not saying attributing it to everything, but actively disbelieving in the prospect on a per situation basis) is nonsensical.All I have to say about this is that this moves no units with me.All I get from this is that someone wrote the Athar into Planescape and was extremely naive about the nature of divinity and the implications of D&amp;D's setting and cosmology.&nbsp; I certainly wouldn't attribute to them philosophical expert status on the nature of divinity (therefore ceding my own reasoning to their creation of an obtuse sect in a section of the cosmos that they no doubt that was interesting and coherent).I think the only problem that D&amp;D has (when it comes to dieties and &quot;narrative causality&quot;) is finding the subtle distinctions to make regarding Wizards, Clerics, Demons/Devils/Celestials, and the greater powers (Archdevils/demons, Gods, Primordials, Elder Spirits).&nbsp;&nbsp; If something is (a) immortal, (b) worshipped, and (c) possesses power over nature/creation/the fortunes of the inhabitants of the (typically) prime world...then they're a &quot;god/deity&quot; in our world.&nbsp; There is work to be done regarding distinctions/clarifications in &quot;D&amp;D world&quot;, but that certainly doesn't have any implication on &quot;narrative causality&quot; that would make it less omnipresent!&nbsp; That wouldn't be terribly difficult for myself to suss out in a coherent way (given time), so if the Athar don't possess the collective cognitive horsepower to do so then my guess is that they aren't worthy of their elevated Planescape Faction status!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7732343, member: 6696971"] Instead of evaluating the events of the game world and interacting with them as they come (eg evidence that your brother, who is your hero, may either be (a) fallen to some degree or (b) in danger/dead), a player evaluates outcomes of action resolution on merits of "degree of narrative causality" and considers them "contrived." Player becomes upset. I don't see how that isn't metagaming (and nonsensical metagaming at that given that the premise of play is likely to engage with such things and also > below). Your position on how things operate in the real world is irrelevant. The reality is, the overwhelming majority of our world's populace currently and has historically operated under the premise that "narrative causality" (metaphysical underpinnings and divine providence/organization of the universe) are fundamental to their existence. And (I think we can agree!) they have infinitely less reasons to believe so as folks do in D&D's implied setting and cosmology! Consequently, folks walking around actively disbelieving in "narrative causality" (not saying attributing it to everything, but actively disbelieving in the prospect on a per situation basis) is nonsensical. All I have to say about this is that this moves no units with me. All I get from this is that someone wrote the Athar into Planescape and was extremely naive about the nature of divinity and the implications of D&D's setting and cosmology. I certainly wouldn't attribute to them philosophical expert status on the nature of divinity (therefore ceding my own reasoning to their creation of an obtuse sect in a section of the cosmos that they no doubt that was interesting and coherent). I think the only problem that D&D has (when it comes to dieties and "narrative causality") is finding the subtle distinctions to make regarding Wizards, Clerics, Demons/Devils/Celestials, and the greater powers (Archdevils/demons, Gods, Primordials, Elder Spirits). If something is (a) immortal, (b) worshipped, and (c) possesses power over nature/creation/the fortunes of the inhabitants of the (typically) prime world...then they're a "god/deity" in our world. There is work to be done regarding distinctions/clarifications in "D&D world", but that certainly doesn't have any implication on "narrative causality" that would make it less omnipresent! That wouldn't be terribly difficult for myself to suss out in a coherent way (given time), so if the Athar don't possess the collective cognitive horsepower to do so then my guess is that they aren't worthy of their elevated Planescape Faction status! [/QUOTE]

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