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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7732479" data-attributes="member: 42582">Here's <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?330383-Underdark-adventure-with-Demons-Beholders-Elementals-and-a-Hydra" target="_blank">an actual play post</a> that describes part of the underdark sequence in our main 4e game.There were encounter area maps for most of the combat encounters, but there was no overall dungeon map - I think at a certain point, as things went along, I drew up a simple line diagram just to lock in the basic geography that we'd established (but no distances, angles, compass rose, etc).I don't recall if the players made any sort of map. Mapping is not an important part of how we play RPGs.The "sweet spot" for 4e is approximately 1st level to 30th: the maths doesn't break down (provided the players don't go for obviously broken/degenerate builds) and the mechanics and fiction correlate properly.The issue in 4e is PC complexity - ie player "search and handling time", rather than the maths per se. That's why the Neverwinter campaign setting re-corelates fiction and mechanics, to give a heroic through paragon story experience without mechanically advancing beyond heroic tier.My personal preference (for my Dark Sun game) is to step up the rate of levelling rather than slow it down; I don't think there's enough content in Dark Sun to support a full 30 levels worth of play.That's a lot like saying that D&D bakes in an erroneous assumption, that the game will be about swords and spells rather than lasers and forged cargo manifests.It's not an assumption, it's a design premise to try and make D&D work in its correlation of fiction and mechanics.The phrase "logic of the game" is yours. I referred to outcomes being determined by the GM. In my game, the GM does not determine all the significant possible outcomes. Action declaration can either result in an outcome determined by the player (if the check succeeds, or if I as GM say "yes") or an outcome determined by the GM (if the check fails). This is the significance of not adjudicating by reference to secret backstory, and thus not having GM vetoes that block possible ouotcomes before the dice are rolled.How can the GM know from his/her notes what happens on success or failure? That would require the GM knowing what the action declarations will be. Which would require the GM knowing, in advance, what the sequence of significant events is going to be. Which takes us back to railroading.Here's a prosaic example: in my last session, the PCs landed on the world of Enlil to visit a local market to look for trinkets that might reveal something about the alien heritage of the people of Enlil. How can I know in advance, from my notes, what will happen on success or failure in that attempt? It never occurred to me that such a thing would happen until the players declared it as their PCs' actions.</blockquote>

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