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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7732696" data-attributes="member: 6696971">A few responses on this Sadras (as I'm sure you're including me in this):1)&nbsp; I don't come at this conversation as a &quot;4e proponent&quot; so I'm not sure why that is the classification used here.&nbsp; Further, my guess is I run (and appreciate) a wider variety of games than 99 % (of not more) of the folks on ENWorld, so &quot;4e proponent&quot; certainly isn't apropos on those grounds either.2)&nbsp; I'm not sure why you say that we haven't acknowledged indie-inspired components in 5e.&nbsp; I'm certain that you have been involved in conversations where&nbsp; [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and I have discussed (and tried to make the center of discussion) things like Background Traits (player fiat effectively), Lair Actions, Social Interaction conflict resolution mechanics, IBF and Inspiration, Success at a Cost, the invocation of Fail Forward in the Basic Set section on noncombat action resolution, and various Author or Director stance PC build features.&nbsp; We were talking about these things 4ish years ago (in whichever iteration they came online during the playtest).Acknowledging and understanding aspects of 5e's development goals or end design has never been an issue.3)&nbsp; Here is the issue with calling 5e a &quot;mainstream indie game&quot; or even an &quot;indie-inspired game&quot; (non-OSR I'm talking about).&nbsp; (Non-OSR) Indie games aren't defined by a component here or a component there.&nbsp; They are the opposite of an al a carte toolset for DIY and a loose play premise/paradigm where rulings not rules are a feature (which is basically the beating heart of the OSR!).&nbsp; They are ultimately defined by their (a) tightness of design (b) engineered around a specific and focused play paradigm/premise.&nbsp; This is why 4e is easily looked at as a &quot;mainstream indie game&quot; or an &quot;indie-inspired game&quot; and why 5e is (very clearly and transparently...as this was obviously the design goal) basically a &quot;meainstream OSR game&quot; inspired primarily by a mash-up of AD&amp;D 2e/Castles and Crusades and some 3.x with some (not fundamentally integrated...by design) indie knick-knacks that can easily be dispensed with!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7732696, member: 6696971"] A few responses on this Sadras (as I'm sure you're including me in this): 1) I don't come at this conversation as a "4e proponent" so I'm not sure why that is the classification used here. Further, my guess is I run (and appreciate) a wider variety of games than 99 % (of not more) of the folks on ENWorld, so "4e proponent" certainly isn't apropos on those grounds either. 2) I'm not sure why you say that we haven't acknowledged indie-inspired components in 5e. I'm certain that you have been involved in conversations where [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and I have discussed (and tried to make the center of discussion) things like Background Traits (player fiat effectively), Lair Actions, Social Interaction conflict resolution mechanics, IBF and Inspiration, Success at a Cost, the invocation of Fail Forward in the Basic Set section on noncombat action resolution, and various Author or Director stance PC build features. We were talking about these things 4ish years ago (in whichever iteration they came online during the playtest). Acknowledging and understanding aspects of 5e's development goals or end design has never been an issue. 3) Here is the issue with calling 5e a "mainstream indie game" or even an "indie-inspired game" (non-OSR I'm talking about). (Non-OSR) Indie games aren't defined by a component here or a component there. They are the opposite of an al a carte toolset for DIY and a loose play premise/paradigm where rulings not rules are a feature (which is basically the beating heart of the OSR!). They are ultimately defined by their (a) tightness of design (b) engineered around a specific and focused play paradigm/premise. This is why 4e is easily looked at as a "mainstream indie game" or an "indie-inspired game" and why 5e is (very clearly and transparently...as this was obviously the design goal) basically a "meainstream OSR game" inspired primarily by a mash-up of AD&D 2e/Castles and Crusades and some 3.x with some (not fundamentally integrated...by design) indie knick-knacks that can easily be dispensed with! [/QUOTE]

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