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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8631037" data-attributes="member: 67338">let me start by agreeing (becuse I am about to disagree alot)in just a fight where the wizard is not trying to nova (aka 5 min work day) the fighter CAN shine and take the spot light (in first 3-5 levels) and it is VERY hard to make a fighter that makes any sense that isn't at least okay at fighting at those levels. yes and no... I sometimes go a bit overboard but I have a MAJOR issue with what you are about to do...I (and many on here) have found that were HD healing is good... it is seldom to never the main healing of a game. counting HD is at best a little dishonest and at worst outright trying to break the argument. I will conside 1 use of second wind.so fighter 12hp + second wind of 6 or 7 (yeah average is 6.5 but you can't have .5hp) so 18 or 19 to the wizard 8...so about double when counting second wind (although it doesn't scale well so it wont be double for long) and the wizard (I assume) wont be a main melee character.  However the Cleric or Hexblade or Bard will be... and they get the same spells and cantrips. they have 10hp instead of 8, advantage IS still to fighter.each level  the d10 calls adds 8 (6+2) the d8 class ads 7 (5+2) and the d6 class adds 6 (4+2) second wind adds +1 per levelsolevel   d10  d8  d6   d10+sw1         12   10   8       192         20   17  14      283         28   24   20     37even at 3rd level we have gone from double wizard to just over 1.5x wizardyup fighters can have a slightly better AC at lower levels... armor though is not guaranteed after starting and ACs are low in this edition unless you really focus.here we go... two handed (the most optimized for damage) is doing good damage... I don't know how your short swords do d8's I will assume a typo. when you do out a long sword and sheild it is a bit better then a cantrip... when you go to 2 weapons or a 2 handed weapon it is much better then a cantrip... and if cantrip user/fullcaster could not use those 2 handed weapons or 2 weapon fighting that would mean something...Hexblade, half the clerics, and a 1/3 of the bards are useing the same weapons... and that reroll 1's and 2's from fighting style is your best advantage (and action surge is a close second) but again those don't add up compaired to full casters.ranged attacks with the archery fighting style IS the most accurate. part of me feels like if we were ONLY able to do combat and they got +1 to all weapon attacks and reroll 1's on all damage dice and fighting styles that would be better (still not perfect)some of the best fighting styles are giving the sup dice that fighters SHOULD just have for free and/or giving cantrips... I know there is one in an unearth arcana that gives a climb and swim speed I don't remember that is pretty good tooor the hex blade cleric or bard with the exact same weaponI watch goblins drop from 1 shot from wizards... let alone again the other caster that ALSO have full weapon prfaction surge is great. It is so great I see people both IRL and in theory crafting taking 2 levels of fighter for it... I have no complaints about THAT ability in a vacume... with a bit of work it could even help in non fights tooany class that doesn't have it's sub class by 3rd (and look wizard cleric and druid all do already) gets it at 3rd... they are tied for last place in getting it.yes it is and every one comes with a cool rider ON TOP of that... valor gets to add inspiration to damage for instance, and has had inspersation and song of rest and jack of all trades this time alreadythey ALL get cool abilities from subclassnope...hexblade can have there 2nd attack at 5th... all casters increase cantrip damage then too1 feat or ASI... i account for it in like 50 posts on this thread... over the first 10 levels you get action surge second wind 1 eaxtra feat/ASI and 1 use of indomitable and either 1 or 2 more hp per level... compaired to 5th level, 4th level ect spells AND other class features (like song of rest, or summon sword)I find it funny that one person is telling me to go through 10 levels 'to get to the even part' and you are telling me the 'first 7ish levels are the even part'I disagree with both... fighter is NEVER equal... you MIGHT have a point at level 1, maybeall useing magic... and as I said that alone is what somepoeple don't want. they want a MARTIAL character not a martial half caster or martial with magic rune or magic shadow (although I do like echo knight idea... take it and battle master and throw on some better level 11+ abilities and you have something)I was talking caster/magic vs noncaster/martial... I don't know what you want to talk about until nowI am. I will continue to do so until it is fixed (I want it more 4e like but maybe another fix witll work I am willing to listen)it isn't... it is "If I want to play a non magic character that keeps up I can't"sigh... the go to arguementwell I have... for years many times at my game, at store games, at con games...the only one of those I see played that way is bladesinger</blockquote>

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