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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 8633131" data-attributes="member: 6799660">Not ignoring this post, just do not have time at the moment to form a sufficient response (Friday is normally the slow work day, not this time). Thanks for shifting tone.Just the very nature of Rage makes barbarians less than the kind of simple I think the referenced type of player wants. Having to think out how to keep rage up (especially if the enemies learn to flee or hide or otherwise be non-targetable for a round to make the rage drop) is a complexity right where I think it is most not wanted. Kinda like rogues -- I think a lot of beginners and beer&pretzel players gravitate to the theme, but the specific implementation ends up being a bit of complexity it tactics (both in making sure to get your SA damage whenever possible and to manage your action economy well). IMO, what is actually wanted is pretty much a BX fighter (just lots of hit points and good AC, saves, to-hits, and damage), or maybe some of the MM entries. In my opinion, it might have been preferable to make this option be a completely separate framework, divorced from fighters (allowing fighters to be more complex in their base chasis). The (alt-)'Champion' could be a separate page, noted as being specifically for this subgroup of games. No multiclassing with other classes, so no issue about 1 level dips or the like. And then just eliminate all the toggles -- not even second wind and action surge or the like (probably still HD to spend, but that's about it). In their place, static effects and high numbers across the board -- D12 or even D20 hd, multiple good saves (maybe proficient in all of them), flat out immunities (no resistances, or chances to shake of or other fidgety methods) to some things (fear being a thematically good choice), decent # of skills if you want to give them some OOC value (but no '1/2 X, roundup'-like things like Jack of all Trades), and maybe some +1 hits/damage/AC at various points. Presenting it in the PHB in 2014 that way would be a tricky tightrope act, but I think it might have made the design space for both this concept and fighters as a whole a lot easier.</blockquote>

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