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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 751514" data-attributes="member: 4937">Trine: Assuming +4 ECL, let's take the worst case of a 16th level Half-Celestial in a party of 20th level characters.Compared to the 20th level characters he has 4 less HD, say between 10 and 26 h.p. depending on class.   But the Half-Celestial has +4 CON, or +2 hp. per level, gaining 32 h.p.Compared to the 20th level characters he has at most 4 less BAB (fighter progression), but he makes up for this by having +4 STR gaining +2 to attack and +2 damage in exchange.  Furthermore, he has +1 natural armor bonus, and +1 bonus to AC from higher Dex.Compared to the 20th level characters he has roughly 1 less bonus to saves from class levels, but he has +2 bonus from higher CON, +2 bonus from higher WIS, and +1 bonus from higher DEX.Compared to a 20th level character he is missing skill points (anywhere from 4 to realistically 48 or so for a ubersmart rouge), but he makes up for that by having +2 INT giving him 16 extra skill points, and having at least a +1 attribute modifier advantage in every skill.  In most cases (save that ubersmart rouge) this will make up the difference.  Compared to 20th level spellcasters, he is missing 4 levels of spell progression, but in exchange he has gained innate spell casting as follows: protection from evil (x3), bless, aid, detect evil, cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, holy smite, remove disease, dispel evil, holy word, holy aura (x3), hallow, and symbol.  This at the least very nearly compensates for his spell level loss in the worst case.  In the best case, the half-celestial is a fighter class and all this spell progression is free!And I would like to note that the free progression occurs in the best case, precisely when we've noted the worst case for giving up other things.  The advantages in increased hit points, attack bonus, and so forth are much greater for a half-celestial spell caster.Already, even at +4 ECL, the Half-Celestial has clearly advantaged himself over +0 ECL (normal) 20th level characters, but we're not done.  What about the class benifits?  The half celestial does lose 4 levels worth of class benifits (one or two bonus feats, or an extra rage per day, or a extra favored enemy, ect.), but in return the Half-Celestial gains _complete_ immunity to electricity, cold, acid, and disease, a +4 bonus to saves vs. poison, low light vision, and more than likely the innate ability to fly.Compare a 16th level fighter half celestial with a 20th level non-templated fighter.  Which would you rather take through the tomb of horrors?  Which do you think is more likely to cruise through a tournament module?Is there really any contest?</blockquote>

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