Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
Meta - Forums About Forums
Archive-threads
What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 1426600" data-attributes="member: 151"><p>I think it would be more appropriate to say, "SOME people want high level D&D to be mythic." I know plenty of people who want to just lay down the smack, and that doesn't change from 1st level to 20th level, and it's as true now as it was in 1980, when I first started playing regularly.</p><p> </p><p>Personally, I think the 'mythic feel' is more goverened by the DM than anything else. If I occasionally have a negative reaction to people describing high-level play, it's that they seem to ignore a lot of factors when determining its value. The idea that being brought back from the dead is painless and simple, when it rarely proves to be quite that way. Either you're loosing a level or a sizable amount of gold in the form of gems. Even a 20th level character balks at throwing 25,000 gp away, unless the DM is giving them away for free or ignoring the spell restrictions.</p><p> </p><p>It also should be pointed out that there is a difference between making a 20th level character and leveling someone up, over time, to 20th level and beyond. Sub-optimal choices get made on the way, if you work your way up to it. Feats, skills and spells are chosen that are useful at one point, but become less useful later. Treasure gets spent or used that might have been used differently, had the player known what was to come. Many such balancing factors are sometimes ignored when examining high-level play, which can certainly throw off the impression of the game at that level.</p><p> </p><p>I readily agree that high-level D&D lacks many of the elements of fiction and myth...the problem being that fiction and myth make for poor games, especially since most myth and fiction have the luxury of focusing on a viewpoint character, inequal representation of characters and total control over the plot. The various and sundry creators of the Arthurian mythos didn't have to face problems concerning Lancelot being a better swordsman than Kay, or the fact that Lancelot enjoyed a completely different style of play than Percival, or that Galahad would be killed when the Breuse sans Pite got two criticals in one round and Galahad failed his massive damage save. Does that mean the story is bad, or the game is faulty? Of course not, but it does highlight that they are different creatures, with different goals. The issue, of course, is that most gng proponents would like to emulate that feel much more closely than D&D does, at its default setting. </p><p> </p><p>High-level D&D doesn't emulate that feel well, but that doesn't mean that said play doesn't feel mythic. I think my players would argue that they found that battle against a swarm of miniature gulthias horrors fun, but they were much more involved in the argument with the renegade members of a celestial host that occured just afterwards, or the negotiation with the demon princess or the encounter with the three deities avatars. Almost none of which required rolls, and with which spells had little or no part.</p><p> </p><p>The nice thing about 3e D&D is that, since it's so consistent from a rules perspective, creating alternate rules variants to address these issues is much easier to accomplish. </p><p> </p><p>At least, it would be if Wulf would get Grim Tales to the printer, already. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 9px"><strong>(Either that, or change those banner ads, dadgummit!)</strong></span></em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WizarDru, post: 1426600, member: 151"] I think it would be more appropriate to say, "SOME people want high level D&D to be mythic." I know plenty of people who want to just lay down the smack, and that doesn't change from 1st level to 20th level, and it's as true now as it was in 1980, when I first started playing regularly. Personally, I think the 'mythic feel' is more goverened by the DM than anything else. If I occasionally have a negative reaction to people describing high-level play, it's that they seem to ignore a lot of factors when determining its value. The idea that being brought back from the dead is painless and simple, when it rarely proves to be quite that way. Either you're loosing a level or a sizable amount of gold in the form of gems. Even a 20th level character balks at throwing 25,000 gp away, unless the DM is giving them away for free or ignoring the spell restrictions. It also should be pointed out that there is a difference between making a 20th level character and leveling someone up, over time, to 20th level and beyond. Sub-optimal choices get made on the way, if you work your way up to it. Feats, skills and spells are chosen that are useful at one point, but become less useful later. Treasure gets spent or used that might have been used differently, had the player known what was to come. Many such balancing factors are sometimes ignored when examining high-level play, which can certainly throw off the impression of the game at that level. I readily agree that high-level D&D lacks many of the elements of fiction and myth...the problem being that fiction and myth make for poor games, especially since most myth and fiction have the luxury of focusing on a viewpoint character, inequal representation of characters and total control over the plot. The various and sundry creators of the Arthurian mythos didn't have to face problems concerning Lancelot being a better swordsman than Kay, or the fact that Lancelot enjoyed a completely different style of play than Percival, or that Galahad would be killed when the Breuse sans Pite got two criticals in one round and Galahad failed his massive damage save. Does that mean the story is bad, or the game is faulty? Of course not, but it does highlight that they are different creatures, with different goals. The issue, of course, is that most gng proponents would like to emulate that feel much more closely than D&D does, at its default setting. High-level D&D doesn't emulate that feel well, but that doesn't mean that said play doesn't feel mythic. I think my players would argue that they found that battle against a swarm of miniature gulthias horrors fun, but they were much more involved in the argument with the renegade members of a celestial host that occured just afterwards, or the negotiation with the demon princess or the encounter with the three deities avatars. Almost none of which required rolls, and with which spells had little or no part. The nice thing about 3e D&D is that, since it's so consistent from a rules perspective, creating alternate rules variants to address these issues is much easier to accomplish. At least, it would be if Wulf would get Grim Tales to the printer, already. ;) [i][size=1][b](Either that, or change those banner ads, dadgummit!)[/b][/size][/i] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
Meta - Forums About Forums
Archive-threads
What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?
Top