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<blockquote data-quote="niklinna" data-source="post: 9246820" data-attributes="member: 71235">There were things about the prose that annoyed me, and I've spoken freely about them, but annoying prose does not a bad game make. As for &quot;play to find out what happens&quot;, the text is pretty clear about what that means, and given the dominant playstyle of the times, it needed to be said.I don't recall seeing that language in the game text, and the game is pretty clear that relationships are about what you can get from someone for now, and things are changing all the time so be on your toes.Well this is just flat out incorrect. You can do anything you want that makes sense in the fiction. But, if what you want to do fits the conditions for a move applying, then the move applies and you must resolve it.Given your incorrect takes on the game, I can see why you hated&nbsp; it.I've had great fun with Fate but it does take a savvy GM to make it sing. So yeah that game has some failings. Nowhere near enough to put it at the bottom of my list though.I haven't played or read Burning Wheel, but I have played Torchbearer 2, which uses the same general game engine, and which I consider a pretty amazingly-designed game system—for a very limited audience. It too has a large page count, but it also has very large type. I had a few minor quibbles about the rules, and several serious quibbles about the organization of the text and difficulty of finding rules when needed, but I thought the game engine was amazing for its stated purposes. All of the crunch was there for good reason, and part of my enjoyment of the game was starting with a low understanding of how it worked, but how beautifully that became clear through play. If my GM proposed Mouse Guard or Burning Wheel I'd definitely be interested.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="niklinna, post: 9246820, member: 71235"] There were things about the prose that annoyed me, and I've spoken freely about them, but annoying prose does not a bad game make. As for "play to find out what happens", the text is pretty clear about what that means, and given the dominant playstyle of the times, it needed to be said. I don't recall seeing [I]that[/I] language in the game text, and the game is pretty clear that relationships are about what you can get from someone for now, and things are changing all the time so be on your toes. Well this is just flat out incorrect. You can do anything you want that makes sense in the fiction. But, if what you want to do fits the conditions for a move applying, then the move applies and you must resolve it. Given your incorrect takes on the game, I can see why you hated it. I've had great fun with Fate but it does take a savvy GM to make it sing. So yeah that game has some failings. Nowhere near enough to put it at the bottom of my list though. I haven't played or read Burning Wheel, but I have played Torchbearer 2, which uses the same general game engine, and which I consider a pretty amazingly-designed game system—for a very limited audience. It too has a large page count, but it also has [SIZE=7]very large type[/SIZE]. I had a few minor quibbles about the rules, and several serious quibbles about the organization of the text and difficulty of finding rules when needed, but I thought the game engine was amazing for its stated purposes. All of the crunch was there for good reason, and part of my enjoyment of the game was starting with a low understanding of how it worked, but how beautifully that became clear through play. If my GM proposed Mouse Guard or Burning Wheel I'd definitely be interested. [/QUOTE]

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