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<blockquote data-quote="Mark" data-source="post: 5135020" data-attributes="member: 5"><p>No need for number three since if 4E had been a retro-clone of 1E AD&amp;D the OSR movement would likely have stopped in its tracks.&nbsp; Your original statement &quot;The OSR exists because people were ALREADY alienated from WotC's version of D&amp;D ca. 2005. Really, no really, it has nothing to do with 4e.&quot; is about why it &quot;exists&quot; and part of that is because of 4E being how it is (along with other non-D&amp;D games not filling the needs of OSR pundits).&nbsp; I even say further that if there were non-D&amp;D alternatives that already did what retro-clones do, people would have turned to them rather than (re)inventing impersonations of wheels.&nbsp; Furthermore, it has to be noted that the mere proliferation of all the retro-clones that exist, from C&amp;C to S&amp;W to LL to OSRIC to the game that Joseph Goodman is playtesting proves that not only can no single game scratch the itch but, inversely, no single game can have caused the itch to exist and need scratching.&nbsp; It's like saying that a new beverage came into existence because people don't like Coke when obviously they must also not like Pepsi or any number of other existing beverages to not simply turn toward one of the alternatives.</p></blockquote><p></p>

[QUOTE="Mark, post: 5135020, member: 5"] No need for number three since if 4E had been a retro-clone of 1E AD&D the OSR movement would likely have stopped in its tracks. Your original statement "The OSR exists because people were ALREADY alienated from WotC's version of D&D ca. 2005. Really, no really, it has nothing to do with 4e." is about why it "exists" and part of that is because of 4E being how it is (along with other non-D&D games not filling the needs of OSR pundits). I even say further that if there were non-D&D alternatives that already did what retro-clones do, people would have turned to them rather than (re)inventing impersonations of wheels. Furthermore, it has to be noted that the mere proliferation of all the retro-clones that exist, from C&C to S&W to LL to OSRIC to the game that Joseph Goodman is playtesting proves that not only can no single game scratch the itch but, inversely, no single game can have caused the itch to exist and need scratching. It's like saying that a new beverage came into existence because people don't like Coke when obviously they must also not like Pepsi or any number of other existing beverages to not simply turn toward one of the alternatives. [/QUOTE]

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